Identifying a koi/goldfish hybrid

flaringshutter · 02-13-2009, 04:44 PM

Hello all! I have a very unusual situation and I wanted to consult with some of you, who have more experience with goldfish and koi than I do.

You may have seen the black comet goldfish in the last goldfishconnection.com auction. I won that fish and it arrived from Ken on Wednesday in great shape. It's healthy and feeding well, but I noticed some strange things...

The body shape is very different than that of my other comets. The fins are rounded at the ends, the mouth is low-set and the head is triangular, the caudal peduncle is thick and muscular... like a koi. My first thought was that perhaps it could have been produced by crossing a standard comet or funa with an old-school black moor like David posted on goldfishgarage.blogspot.com awhile back - the body shape is somewhat similar and that would explain the rich black color.
I took some photographs of the fish and while reviewing them, noticed that my "black comet" has two tiny barbels at the corners of his mouth. So I did a lateral line scale count and counted 33, too many for a goldfish but not enough for a koi. This fish has a very subtle hump between the head and dorsal fin, a classic characteristic of many hybrids. Black koi/goldfish hybrids have popped up a few times on other forums...
I'm convinced that my fish is a hybrid. I posted the photos to my flickr account (http://flickr.com/photos/33260734@N02/) and you can have a look for yourself. Here's one:

I'm sure Ken wouldn't dupe his buyers by selling them a hybrid as a goldfish. I think his wholesaler may not have been completely honest with him. I sent him an email and as of now, have not received a reply... what do you all think?

flaringshutter · 02-13-2009, 04:54 PM

I've also been able to do a dorsal fin ray count, which is 20 - again, too many for a goldfish and just within the koi range.

Fishdork · 02-13-2009, 06:02 PM

Most of what I've read about hybrids says they usually have 2 barbels (only 1 pr.). The belly line of that fish leans toward koi. Most people claim hybrids are sterile because koi and goldfish have a different number of chromosomes. Merlin Cunliffe, a retired commercial goldfish farmer in Australia insists they have had a line of hybrid mirror scale fish that resemble large goldfish and are fertile. Colors on hybrids often range from a stunning mud olive to black.
Norm

flaringshutter · 02-13-2009, 06:08 PM

That's what my fish shows - one pair of very small barbels. I figured he was sterile. All the research I've done shows that hybrids are sterile since it's an inter-generic hybrid. That's disappointing, since I wanted to breed this fish...

Ichthius · 02-13-2009, 07:20 PM

Great fish Iris!

The bummer is a black commet sounds to good to be true and it might just be at this point.

You might let them know you have a hyprid not a true goldfish.

My sources say 32 to 38 lateral scales for a carp.

flaringshutter · 02-14-2009, 06:19 PM

That's what I was afraid of... still no answer from Ken. I may call him directly.

Thanks for the info about lateral scales. That's even stronger evidence for a hybrid then... bother. Paid a pretty penny for a lovely fish that can't breed!

Virginia ranchu · 02-14-2009, 07:04 PM

Hi,

I found this picture of a goldfish-koi hybrid on the internet, and it looks pretty similar to your fish.

Cheers,

Rob

flaringshutter · 02-15-2009, 09:59 PM

I saw that photo earlier, but thanks for posting it! It does look very similar to my fish, and I've found a few other photos of hybrids that look quite similar as well. I'm disappointed, but he is a very nice looking fish nonetheless. I'm just worried about his adult size now... he's going to be a monster!
Still no word from Ken, and I see the new auction isn't up yet. He said he was going to have more black comets in the auction... I wonder if that has anything to do with the delay? Hm...

bekko · 02-17-2009, 04:24 AM

Those black comets started coming out of China about a year ago. I am so glad now that I did not bite. Being sterile, they would never have become broodstock.

-steve

flaringshutter · 02-17-2009, 04:34 PM

Precisely, Steve. It's very disappointing. After watching this fish over the past week, it's clear that it is a hybrid. I wish I had video to post for you all - swims like a koi, eats like a koi, schools like a koi, fin shape says koi - which is really too bad. I was hoping for a good investment for breeding down the line when we have a house with a pond.

02-13-2009, 04:44 PM	#1
flaringshutter Singletails Mostly Group: Keeper Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 127 Thanks: 6 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts	Identifying a koi/goldfish hybrid Hello all! I have a very unusual situation and I wanted to consult with some of you, who have more experience with goldfish and koi than I do. You may have seen the black comet goldfish in the last goldfishconnection.com auction. I won that fish and it arrived from Ken on Wednesday in great shape. It's healthy and feeding well, but I noticed some strange things... The body shape is very different than that of my other comets. The fins are rounded at the ends, the mouth is low-set and the head is triangular, the caudal peduncle is thick and muscular... like a koi. My first thought was that perhaps it could have been produced by crossing a standard comet or funa with an old-school black moor like David posted on goldfishgarage.blogspot.com awhile back - the body shape is somewhat similar and that would explain the rich black color. I took some photographs of the fish and while reviewing them, noticed that my "black comet" has two tiny barbels at the corners of his mouth. So I did a lateral line scale count and counted 33, too many for a goldfish but not enough for a koi. This fish has a very subtle hump between the head and dorsal fin, a classic characteristic of many hybrids. Black koi/goldfish hybrids have popped up a few times on other forums... I'm convinced that my fish is a hybrid. I posted the photos to my flickr account (http://flickr.com/photos/33260734@N02/) and you can have a look for yourself. Here's one: I'm sure Ken wouldn't dupe his buyers by selling them a hybrid as a goldfish. I think his wholesaler may not have been completely honest with him. I sent him an email and as of now, have not received a reply... what do you all think?

02-13-2009, 07:20 PM	#5
Ichthius Professional Breeder Group: Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Eugene Oregon Posts: 1,665 Thanks: 197 Thanked 450 Times in 310 Posts	Great fish Iris! The bummer is a black commet sounds to good to be true and it might just be at this point. You might let them know you have a hyprid not a true goldfish. My sources say 32 to 38 lateral scales for a carp. __________________ Best Fishes David www.goldfishgarage.com goldfishgarage @ gmail.com

02-14-2009, 07:04 PM	#7
Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Arlington, Virginia Posts: 932 Thanks: 237 Thanked 279 Times in 211 Posts	Goldfish Koi hybrid picture Hi, I found this picture of a goldfish-koi hybrid on the internet, and it looks pretty similar to your fish. Cheers, Rob

02-17-2009, 04:24 AM	#9
bekko artisanal breeder Group: Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hakipu'u Hawai'i Age: 63 Posts: 646 Thanks: 4 Thanked 156 Times in 100 Posts	Those black comets started coming out of China about a year ago. I am so glad now that I did not bite. Being sterile, they would never have become broodstock. -steve __________________ Rain Garden Goldfish and Flower Farm My Album

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02-13-2009, 04:54 PM	#2
flaringshutter Singletails Mostly Group: Keeper Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 127 Thanks: 6 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts	I've also been able to do a dorsal fin ray count, which is 20 - again, too many for a goldfish and just within the koi range.

02-13-2009, 06:02 PM	#3
Fishdork Professional Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 108 Thanks: 8 Thanked 25 Times in 18 Posts	Most of what I've read about hybrids says they usually have 2 barbels (only 1 pr.). The belly line of that fish leans toward koi. Most people claim hybrids are sterile because koi and goldfish have a different number of chromosomes. Merlin Cunliffe, a retired commercial goldfish farmer in Australia insists they have had a line of hybrid mirror scale fish that resemble large goldfish and are fertile. Colors on hybrids often range from a stunning mud olive to black. Norm

02-13-2009, 06:08 PM	#4
flaringshutter Singletails Mostly Group: Keeper Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 127 Thanks: 6 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts	That's what my fish shows - one pair of very small barbels. I figured he was sterile. All the research I've done shows that hybrids are sterile since it's an inter-generic hybrid. That's disappointing, since I wanted to breed this fish...

02-14-2009, 06:19 PM	#6
flaringshutter Singletails Mostly Group: Keeper Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 127 Thanks: 6 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts	That's what I was afraid of... still no answer from Ken. I may call him directly. Thanks for the info about lateral scales. That's even stronger evidence for a hybrid then... bother. Paid a pretty penny for a lovely fish that can't breed!

02-15-2009, 09:59 PM	#8
flaringshutter Singletails Mostly Group: Keeper Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 127 Thanks: 6 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts	I saw that photo earlier, but thanks for posting it! It does look very similar to my fish, and I've found a few other photos of hybrids that look quite similar as well. I'm disappointed, but he is a very nice looking fish nonetheless. I'm just worried about his adult size now... he's going to be a monster! Still no word from Ken, and I see the new auction isn't up yet. He said he was going to have more black comets in the auction... I wonder if that has anything to do with the delay? Hm...

02-17-2009, 04:34 PM	#10
flaringshutter Singletails Mostly Group: Keeper Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 127 Thanks: 6 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts	Precisely, Steve. It's very disappointing. After watching this fish over the past week, it's clear that it is a hybrid. I wish I had video to post for you all - swims like a koi, eats like a koi, schools like a koi, fin shape says koi - which is really too bad. I was hoping for a good investment for breeding down the line when we have a house with a pond.