Goldfish acting oddly

[angelkitty]

I need advice regarding two of my three goldies...

On Sunday I performed a 75% water change and propogated some new java fern sprouts. The only thing I added differently was the suggested dose of Flourish Excel which I just received on Saturday.

Fish: a Comet, a Shubunkin and a Common goldfish
Aquarium: 40 gallon tall Eclispse
Plants: java fern and java moss, a few sprigs of Anacharis
Decoration: two large pieces of driftwood
Aeration: one 12" bubble wand and a 6" microbubbler

The Shubunkin is acting normal but the Comet suddenly looks as though it's having problems swimming against the current and very suddenly looks gutted (very thin). The Common goldie's fins are clamped.

I checked all the water parameters and all are normal although the ph was "slightly" acidic.

Any ideas? I think when I get home tonight if they seem the same I will do a 50% water change. Does anyone know if Flourish Excel somehow lowers the pH?

[SeaWitch]

I'm a new member here, but not new to keeping goldies. I was wondering how many gallons per hour of filtration do you have in your tank? Also, depending on your fish's sizes, a 40 gallon is going to be, or may already be too small for the type of fish you have. Single-tailed fish really do better in a pond enviroment, but they need a minimum of about 20g per fish. What exactly were your water parameters when you checked them? Also, were the new plants disinfected or QTed in any way? How long have you had your fish? Sorry for all the questions...I'm just trying to get some info for the mods here so they can help you better.

[angelkitty]

Thanks Seawitch...don't mind the questions.

how many gallons per hour of filtration do you have in your tank

I have no idea. I have an Eclipse tank with the built in carbon and biowheel filtration.

Also, depending on your fish's sizes, a 40 gallon is going to be, or may already be too small for the type of fish you have. Single-tailed fish really do better in a pond enviroment, but they need a minimum of about 20g per fish.

How long have you had your fish?

I've had the tank for approximately five years and have had these fish for at least 3 years with no problems. The Comet and Common goldies came from a friends pond, the Shubunkin was bought at Petsmart. The Comet is appox 4 inches (including tail) and the other two are approx 3 inches.

What exactly were your water parameters when you checked them?

I check the parameters by the dip stick method so no exact number but all were normal with the exception of the pH being on the acidic side. I performed the water change on Sunday and check the water on Monday evening.

Also, were the new plants disinfected or QTed in any way?

I've had the plants for a little over a month...this is my first try with live plants but so far the Java fern and moss have done very well.

That's the strange thing - the only "new" thing I did was add the recommended dose of Flourish Excel :youtellme: The fish looked a bit better this morning although the Comet's tail fins look a bit ragged :youtellme:

[SeaWitch]

I have never used the Flourish, so I can't be sure about that. I do know that a sudden drop in pH can cause stress in the fish. You may want to get a drop water test kit, such as API. You can get better results from a drop kit than sticks. Also, the Eclipse with the built-in filter is made for tropical fish, not goldies. Tropicals are far less messy than GF are. Is there anyway to add another filter to your tank, like a Hang-on-Back filter? With goldies, you need as much filtration as you can manage; you can never have too much IMO. Is your pH stable now and in a good range? If so, you can add some aquarium salt and Mela-Fix to your tank to help heal your fish's tail. For the Mela-Fix, just follow the instructions on the bottle. For the aquarium salt, add 40 TSP. or 13 TBSP of pre-dissolved aquarium salt. Remember, salt does not evaporate and can only be removed with water changes. When you do change the water, keep up with how many gallons you have taken out, so you can add that salt back. You want the salt at a 0.1%. That equals 40 TSP or about 13 TBSP for a 40g tank. Keep the salt and Mela-Fix in the tank for about 5-7 days and see if that helps your fish's tail. Both the salt and Mela-Fix are very mild and will not affect your cycle or harm any of your fish in any way.

[SeaWitch]

***Mods and Admin***
Please for give me if I am over-stepping here! I didn't mean to offend anyone. I had just noticed that no one else had responded to Angelkitty, so I thought I would try and help her. I'm sorry if this is not allowed!:youtellme:

[Ajno]

No one else may be responding because you are doing a good job. It could be the excel. None of these plants are new? I would do a
large water change and see if it helps.

EDIT Did you stereilize the plants before adding them?

[Virginia ranchu]

You didn't mention whether you used dechlorinator/ammonia remover when you did your water change. I have seen this sort of reaction when I used an "off brand" dechlorinator that was not also an ammonia remover. I recommend Prime by Seachem.

What did you use?


Rob

[angelkitty]

Okay lets see if I can answer everything...

I've had these particular goldies in this Eclipse tank for approx three years with no problems so I don't think it's the tank. There's no way to add a hang-on filter as the hood fits down over the sides and also contains the lighting. I must have a secure top on my aquarium as I have 5 indoor kitties and one that loves to jump on top of the hood and once even pulled the aeration tubing out and caused a slight mess!

I use Stresscoat for dechlorination and I add salt to my aquarium but usually only add about 1 tbsp for each 10 gallons of water. I did the water change on Sunday probably 80% which I didn't really mean to do that much and I noticed the change in the fish on Monday evening.

I have used Melafix before so I'll try and get some of that...there are no good pet stores around here so I usually have to order online. I'll also order some Prime as I've noticed lots of you on this forum use it.

I've had the plant in the tank for a little over one month so, no they are not new. I didn't sterilize the plants :ST: After all my reading here and researching I must have missed that...I was just so excited to start with the new plants :me: Really the ONLY thing I did differently was add the Flourish Excel.

Oh, and I took the parameters again (dipstick) and noticed that my water is very acidic and the alkalinity is in the lowest range. I have a drop test kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master Test Kit for Freshwater). The pH was 6.0 (lowest range). I tried to do the Carbonate Hardness and General Hardness but all the dKH and ppm is way over my head so I don't know...I just think the alkalinity and pH are too low. According to the dipstick our tap water is "soft".

[angelkitty]

Oh, forgot to add that even though the water parameters haven't changed the fish are doing better. I added some additional salt a couple nights ago. My larger orange Comet is doing better and swimming better although his tail still looks ragged. I was thinking about doing a 50% water change to see if that would help...

[angelkitty]

Oh, and also, I'm afraid I don't understand about replacing the salt. For instance, if I did a 50% water change (20 gallons), how much salt would I add back in? Sorry for being such a dummy but sometimes I think you need a chemistry degree to have aquariums!

[suphi]

Your pH is pretty low. Does your tap water have the same pH?

[SeaWitch]

Also, you really need to be careful when using salt in your tanks. Most people don't use aquarium salt unless they are QTing a new fish or the fish is sick (or for tropicals). When you add salt at every water change, then don't keep up with how much you have in there, that can get dangerous for the fish. Too much salt in a tank can cause salt poisoning.

Salt does not evaporate from your tank and can only be removed with water changes. If you are using salt for medical purposes, then you must keep a record of how much you have in the tank. Your tank is 40g, so to bring your salt content to 0.1%, you would need 40 TSP. of dissolved salt. Let's say you changed out 50% of the water at a water change; you would need to add back 20 TSP of salt to replace what was taken out during the wc.

What I would suggest is first, as was asked before, test your pH from your tap and see what the reading is. That will let us know if your pH is low or if it is dropping once the water sits in the tank for a while. Second, you need to do two, back-to-back, (50% each time) water changes. A 100% wc total. As you don't know exactly how much salt you have in your tank, you need to remove all of it and start over again. Once you have completed your 100% wc, then totally dissolve 40 TSPs. or 13 TBSP of aquarium salt in some tank water and then add that slowly to your tank. This will bring your salt content in your tank to .1%. A salt content of .1% and some Melafix should help your fish with the torn tail in about 5-7 days.

[angelkitty]

Thanks Seawitch....when I first started with goldfish several years ago I was told by the pet store to put aquarium salt in each time the water was changed. I do a water change this weekend. All the fish are acting normal now and I think they will be okay but I just need to work on getting the one's tail back to normal.

Oh, I tested my pH from the tap and it was just a bit better than the tank's pH. I guess I should keep some Proper pH handy...

[suphi]

When I see pH as low as 6.0, the first thing that usually comes to my mind is pH crash and this can be fatal if not corrected. If you have a very soft water, you are running risk of this. Quick fix is baking soda, long term fix is crushed coral. If your fish is still having clamped fins, I would consider fixing the water pH.

[sweetshannon]

I have low PH, too. I have crushed coral in my filters, and I use baking soda with each water change. Works like a charm!

[marlin08]

I, too., have soft water with a ph problem. When I do a big water change, the ph is good(7.) but a few days later it is dropping. I usually add a bit of baking soda midweek and this helps.
I keep hearing about crushed coral. What is the best source if you just need a little for HOB type filters? (Emperor 400, Penguin 200) ? I keep finding it online in very large quantities.
How often do you change it out?
Sorry to hijack, hoped it would be ok since it's a similar issue...(the low ph)

[bekko]

Search for 'aragonite' sold for reef tanks. Coral can be either aragonite or calcite. I seem to recall that aragonite dissolves a little faster, but could be wrong about that.

If your pH is dropping that quickly, then the amount of coral you can fit in a HOB may not be enough. It dissolves very slowly. You do not need to replace it. It just goes away.

Baking soda is cheap and easy, but the pH jumps very quickly and pH jumps are never good. You can dissolve the baking soda in a plastic cup full of water, set the cup on top of the tank, and hang a piece of yarn over the side of the cup. As water is wicked up into the yarn, it drips into the tank (like a very very slow siphon).

-steve

[sweetshannon]

I, too., have soft water with a ph problem. When I do a big water change, the ph is good(7.) but a few days later it is dropping. I usually add a bit of baking soda midweek and this helps.
I keep hearing about crushed coral. What is the best source if you just need a little for HOB type filters? (Emperor 400, Penguin 200) ? I keep finding it online in very large quantities.
How often do you change it out?
Sorry to hijack, hoped it would be ok since it's a similar issue...(the low ph)
There is a pet store here (pet club) that sells it by the pound. Maybe there is some reef stores near you that do the same?