2009 June Calico veiltail spawns

[sc569]

Starting this due to recent spawns of my veiltails this past weekend. I had three different yearling calico veiltail females spawn over three days. Each was handspawned to different males to complement their faults. Each female has some fault that I am trying to overcome with the selected males.

The eggs are developing right now in glass (Pyrex) trays placed in a home made 12 gallon tank that is ~3 ft long and ~10 inches deep. The tank is clean and I have added some large pea gravel that has been in the breeders tank for a long time.

I am attaching images of the fish. They are F4 fish of my own breeding. The original stock was a calico veiltail male of my own breeding from Jackie Chan stock (Tung Hoi in China) and a female broadtail Moor (Thai stock, purchased from Gunn Chusakul, gifted to me by Carlos Perez).

The best F4 veiltail calico female is mainly red and black with some mottling on her black. This indicates to me that she will transmit the blue coloring. Her head shape is exactly the way I like but her body is still somewhat elongated. One of her pectoral fins has a twist. Otherwise, everything else looks good.

She has spawned twice within 8 days and she has been handspawned to different veiltail males. Two of the metallic veiltail males are a brother and an uncle. The brother is very nice and literally does not have any faults that I can see. The uncle is very similar but the tail is more droopy and has only one anal fin. She has also been bred to another uncle that is a calico veil – brother to the metallic 2 year old. This calico male retains the blue color on his back but has two twisted pectoral. He also has a droopy tail that I don’t like as much.

Two other veiltail females were laying eggs and I harveste those eggs also. Much fewer eggs as these females were smaller. However, I have found that it is difficult to predict the quality of fry that are produced from any given pairing. Thus, the current situation where I am incubating eggs from multiple spawns in one tank. All told, there may be 500 to 800 viable eggs.

[sc569]

Here are pictures of two 2 year old veiltail males that were spawned with the yearling female.

One of the breeder males is a yearling metallic veiltail male that is a brother to the yearling female. He is the one with the caudal fins that are much more upright.

[Veil Gal]

Streamson, Your F4 female looks very much like the two girls I've retained from the same spawn!:yess:

[sc569]

I thought I would post this since it is something that we can all do to protect our precious spawnings.


I installed a bubble wand with lots of air on the back side of the incubating tank. There is a lot of water movement and the aeration probably oxidizes a lot of things.

In the pictures, you can see infertile eggs with some fungus on them. However, this is minimal and does not endanger the fertile eggs. It looks like this will be a good hatch! With some careful watching, I can see the embryos move inside the eggs occasionally. The first batch should be hatching tomorrow.

So, vigorous aeration is sufficient to minimize fungus growth and prevent its spread onto fertile eggs.

[sc569]

Michelle,

That is not a surprise since they are probably from the same spawning!

Hope your fry this year turn out nice.

Well, mine looks like she is filling up with eggs again. She is sitting on the bottom and looks very rotund. I will have to decide what to do with her when she lays eggs the next time.

Streamson

[sc569]

I am attaching a picture of eggs from a calico x metallic spawning. Most of the eggs have hatched and these are some of the later hatchers.

I have noticed that some of the eggs look golden and the fry hatch out like that too. My guess is that these are the calico fry although I have never confirmed this. It is possible that there is another color variant that is responsible for this but I have not tested it.

Streamson

[sc569]

OK. The female F4 calico laid eggs again (see her picture in Post #1).

I hand-spawned her eggs with the calico F3 male in Post #2.

So, this spawn is from only two parents. I hope I can keep all of these straight.

As this is a repeat, if anyone wants some fry, please shout out. You can get them for the price of shipping in about 2-3 weeks, if they are still doing well. I am guessing there will be 200-300, based on good fertilization rates and minimal numbers of fungused eggs. I will send unselected fry. The obviously deformed ones will be removed.

Streamson

[zph2k]

Hi Streamson,
I would like to get some calico Veil fry. Please let me know the shipping cost and method of payment.

thanks
Zaw

[sc569]

Zaw,

I sent you an e-mail. I am not sure when the fry will be big enough to send. Maybe end of June.

Streamson

[afertuna]

Just like Michelle I got some of that spawn from Janet Purdum. They are very pretty and developed nicely. I have bred them this year and the fry are nice. I also got some of Michelles spawn from hers.

[afertuna]

Actually I was wrong the ones I have are grandchildren of the ones that Janet got from you. I didnt know that they were from calico stock. I have some that have stayed the bronze color for the last 1 1/2 years. most of the rest went red and white and black and red. I got a couple non blue calico's that look like they are filling with eggs I think that I am going to spawn them to my bronze male and see aht happens.

[sc569]

To Afertuna,

Are the veils that you have calicos or metallic red/white? I seem to recall that Janet did not have any calicos that survived and she crossed them to her stock of Al Foster's line of red/white metallic veils.

In any case, it would be nice to see what kind of fish you can produce!

It is unlikely that you will have any calico fish as the stock is all metallic.

Streamson

[terryl]

Streamson, anyupdate?

My matt veil male from Gary spawned with a metellic female in March. About 1/4 of the frys are matt / calico. After culling away more than 95%, I am now down to about 30 2inch frys, about 10 of them are matt/calico. However, none of them look like a veil - They all have short fin, short and folked tail. I guess I may be able to get a couple of matt/calico and a few metellic as my future breeder and breed them back to their father next year. I hope to create some nice calico veil.

Terry

[sc569]

To Terry and everyone,

I just came back from a weeklong conference in Taipei. Really nice people there and good food! No fish viewing though as this was work.

My daughter was feeding the fry about once a day - micro foods from Brine Shrimp Direct.

The fry are growing very slowly. This is due to low temperatures this year in the Northeast. I keep the fry in an unheated basement and I didn't put in heaters as it was June. But the temps have been around 70s to 50s. The basement stays around 60ish even during the day.

The fry look OK but nothing to say anything yet. I have not culled yet either as the fry are too small.

I have gone through this for about 5 generations so I know what stages the fish go through. All of my spawnings are veil x veil so everything comes out veil.

I think I have about 2 months to go before the real standouts show their colors. In the meantime, I just feed and change water.

Streamson

[sc569]

The day after I got back from Taiwan, I got a herniated disk. The pain is pretty intense and I had to take off about 10 days from work. Needless to say, I was unable to care for the fry.

So, I lost most of the fry. However, I still have many little ones swimming about. I just did a major water change today so I will see how it goes.

As a side note, the female F4 veil spawned again on the Fourth. I saved those eggs so I should have a backup lot.

Streamson

[Veil Gal]

OH Streamson, I pray you make a full and speedy recovery! I will tell you that Vitamin C should be added to your diet. I had a very old and excellent chiropractor who told me there was a study done at Guelph in Canada that showed that people with disc problems were deficient in Vitamin C. Some people need more than the average recommended daily allowance. Ester-C is better absorbed by some people. Some goldfish foods even add Vit. C now!

[sc569]

Michelle,

I am getting better. I need to take aspirin to make sure the inflammation is kept down. Otherwise, it starts to hurt. Interestingly, other areas of tendon injury also hurt without the aspirin!! It's all of the cytokines floating around.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention this but I will ask from now on.

There is an idea that a lot of insulin resistance in older diabetics is from inflammation and cytokine storm. I really tend to believe this now at a gut level. This is even after a lot of evidence in favor of this when I reviewed it.

High dose aspirin actually can be used to treat diabetes - the evidence was that people with both rheumatoid arthritis and diabetes had their diabetes cured after taking high doses of aspirin. There was no mechanism for this at the time (in the 50s) but it has had a lot of research into it. An aspirin dimer is in advanced clinical trial in humans right now (dimer form reduces gastric ulcers).

Streamson

[terryl]

Streamson,

Sorry to hear that. I hope you will recover soon. I am also traveling to Asia this week - leaving for a business trip in HK and then to China. I will take some pictures of the goldfish street in Hong Kong.

Terry

[sc569]

Terry,

There is a street in HK that sells fish. There are several stores that specialize in goldfish. The variety can be amazing- as well as the quality.

Most of the ranchu and orandas there will be gigantic!

Black fish also look really good there, especially short tailed moors.

There were 1-2 stores that had really nice fish, including fish that looked like they came from Tung Hoi.

I don't know the sources for the fish but they most likely come from many fish farms. I've tried to get information about the fish, like sex and age, but the vendors don't know as they don't raise the fish.

In any case, it is impossible to bring the fish like I tried to do on one of my first trips to HK. I could get several gallon bags of fish through customs and security - put the suitcase in the overhead bin - and the fish survived a 20 h flight. The fish developed dropsy several months but that is another story!

Streamson

[terryl]

Streamson,

Thanks for the information. I spent a year in HK last year during my sabbatical and visited there many times. There is one store that sell fish from Tung Hoi. There are a few other stores that have very nice fish. One store even import bristol from Japan and selling a couple thousand dollars for a two inches bristol, with a certificate in Japanese. I personally like huge goldfish and think the Japanese ranchu are way too small. But. it is almost impossible to bring in these moster goldfish back home after the trip.

Terry

[sc569]

It is nice to read that people are raising veiltails and that they like them!!

This is very encouraging. So, as long as there are people who enjoy these fish, it is worth all of the trouble to raise them.

Please share if you can so that more people can have the same experience!

Streamson

[sc569]

I was feeding my newest batch of fry. They had started swimming, ~400 or so.

I fed them the brine shrimp substitute for about 2 or 3 days. Today, many of them were dead with full stomachs. I am guessing that more than 100.

I am unsure as to the cause of death - nothing had changed. I am afraid that the rest of the fry will die off also.

[small_ranchu]

I am not expert on breeding but something pop up in my mind.. How big the setup is? Water quality might become an issue when stomatch is full for a big crowd.

[Veil Gal]

Oh Streamson, I am really sorry to hear about your fry dying!! What is the brine shrimp substitue you fed? Is it the de-cap brine shrimp? If so, I would suspect that is what killed the fry. I was warned that you should feed this very sparingly or it can kill the fish. If you can, make the time to raise the live BBS; I pray the remaining fry will survive. Keep us posted. I lost a lot of fry to flukes, I suspect. Treated with PraziPro and CopperSafe--though too late to save the bulk of the hatch : (

[sc569]

This was the first day or two of feeding and water quality was quite good, compared to what I usually let it deteriorate to.

I am away for a day so I will be unable to check.

I am hatching some brine shrimp eggs so I can use those if they hatch.

If they don't survive, I will have to wait for the next spawn or next year.

I do have older fry but I am always hopeful for the next batch of fry, being an optimist.

Streamson

[sc569]

New spawns today and yesterday. A weather front went by and it rained yesterday and last night. So, the three yearling female calico veils just keep laying eggs. I missed the ones from last week.

I hand spawned the two females with an F3 calico veil male (2007 hatch). I think I can get these eggs grown into adults. Just have to put some effort into it.

Also, these eggs don't have the gold colored ones. I don't know what or how the gold eggs came about!

Wish me luck. I have a batch of old brine shrimp eggs in an unopened can. A batch that was opened from last year had nearly no nauplii. So, trying out the "sealed in-can" eggs this week.

One tip: I have been pre-bleaching the glass dishes that I use for the hand spawning. This really kept the fungus growth down.

[zph2k]

Good Luck with your new spawn. The fry that you sent me are growing quick.

[sc569]

Are the calicos looking nice?

Keep at least the best metallic as it will become a valuable breeder.

Streamson

[sc569]

I am having better luck now. I have one or two fry from multiple spawns that look quite nice. All are different ages.

I also have two new hatches (my guess is that I have 500 week old fry from two spawns) that I am hopeful for. They are growing quickly and I am hatching out brine shrimp for them. Thus, they are growing quickly.

I hope to get some growth on them before the cold settles in.

[Veil Gal]

Streamson, It sounds like you are getting "double for your trouble." So glad you have some new spawns after all your back pain, etc. Keep me posted on the fry. I think your fish are really special.

[sc569]

I have some survivors from the early spawns. A few look OK.

As for the recent spawns, they are doing well. Eating and frowing well. We'll just have to see how things progress.

Michelle, I am hopeful for now. There are certainly a few that are worth keeping.

My back is much better now. I still minimize twisting. I played tennis today and actually was better than before my back went bad.

[sc569]

I have heard or read advice concerning the use of multiple males or group spawns.

I would like to suggest that there is one advantage of single male x female spawns.

I typically hand spawn one female and one male although I have used multiple males to fertilize the eggs of one female.

This year, I used one female and spawned with different males. The spawns were raised separately so I could see how they grew. One spawn is giving many desirable fish that are the fast growers. The other spawn, half sibs, only has a very few desirable fish; the typical story of most highly anticipated breedings seasons.

So, in breeder terms (having been reminded by Veiltail Gal), I have been the beneficiary of a nick. I don't believe this is a one time thing since the same pair has produced spawns that have a high percentage of desirable fish.

As the pair looks healthy, the female is a yearling and the male is a 2 year old, I should have many breeding seasons to look forward to! This makes the effort of raising multiple spawns simultaneously worthwhile!

[sc569]

Here are pix of the best fry from the July spawns. They are looking very promising with many fry showing minimal visible faults. They are growing reasonably well although I should add a heater to keep their growth rates higher.

The colors have not reached their full intensities yet as the fish are still young. However, a few have a generally gray background which I am hopeful will develop into the blue nacre.

[harzan]

Thanks for the follow up on posting the wonderful photos of your VTs. I am appreciating them much more since I saw some in person at Gary Haters.

Yours look very healthy...How many turned out of the batch and how large was the batch to start?

[sc569]

This hatch is from one defined pair - calico female x metallic male.

I did not count them all but there were 300-400 fry, maybe more like 300. I have not done a serious cull yet. I have found that even the slow growers can be quite good looking adults. As I have been feeding baby brine shrimp every day, the small ones are growing too. Dry foods tend to favor the larger fry.

If I were to guess, I would say that at least a dozen would be of breeder quality. This means that they have minimal faults or faults that could be balanced out by a mate, such as late developing caudal fin split or single anal fin.

I will cull the metallics heavily when I get the impetus to do so.

The "nick" in this mating is that the largest and fastest growing fry are the ones that are really promising. Usually, the fastest growers are culls!

Thanks for looking!

[Veil Gal]

Streamson, I was so happy to see pics of the siblings. They are looking great! How long are your fry and how deep are the bodies? I'm trying to get a perspective on their size. Let me know.

[sc569]

Largest fry are only about an inch long. The slower growing ones are smaller.

Body depth is variable. The fish in pics 3 and 5 has the nicest looking depth of body. The fry get deeper bodies as they get older though, so this is difficult to evaluate.

Also, I have not been feeding a lot of dry foods that would tend to fatten them up. I have been reluctant to do so to minimize the appearance of swim bladder problems.

[Veil Gal]

When you write that the fry are one inch long--does that include the tail? Maybe I can try to get pics of my fry to post in a few days. Michelle

[sc569]

I am stating body size only without the tail. I could be off as I have not measured them with a ruler.

As you know, there is a big difference in mass as they grow so the difference between a 1 inch fish and a 1.5 inch fish is huge!

It would be nice to see your fish to see how they are developing, Michelle.

It is hard to get photos of the fish in focus. It takes a nice set up to get clear and focused images.

[Veil Gal]

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/VeilGal/IMG_0441.jpg

[OrandaDan]

Hmmm wish I could get hold of some good veils here...:coffee:

[sc569]

OrandaDan,

I'm pretty sure that if you contacted John Parker that you will get some names of veiltail breeders. I know that Gary Hater sent out some videos of gorgeous veils from British breeders recently on his trip to the UK.

Be prepared to pay for them. They are worth it.

[OrandaDan]

I think that Bristol aquarist society has some veil breeding members, im going to look into that. Star fisheries has 3-4 inch calicos for £50 (around 94 USD).

[sc569]

OrandaDan,

If possible, try for yearlings: 2 males and 2-3 females. If you can get them at a reduced cost, get some metallics that are as close to the standard as you can. As the metallics can be culled ruthlessly, the ones that remain are typically of unusually high quality!

[afertuna]

My avatar is part of the Streamson-chu line. If you look in my pics http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/album.php?albumid=7
There are a few of the ones Michelle spawned this year. They are very nice. The problem I have seen with the Veil calico lines there is no blue in them. I have a ver VERY large calico veil I hope to breed them to it have the blue coloration. WIll this possibly dilute?

[sc569]

Afertuna,

Yes, this line is lacking in the black/blue color. My most recent spawns seem to be correcting this as the fish have more black speckling - fish from a metallic x calico.

You can try the calico x calico outcross. Be ready to cull heavily to remove the traits that you don't like.

I think that the original cross that had the Moor is partly the reason for the lack of blue. The progeny have shown demelanizing late in their second year or first year. Even the metallics.

Good luck with the breeding!!

[afertuna]

what in theory would be the best to breed these calicos too? Since they have the lack of the blue pigment how would one intriduce it back? I know that it is neaarly impossible to find the blue and calico blue in the Veils that are already established. I have one that is a blue that depigmented after 2 years it was metallic blue now it is metallic white. would you breed this into the line since it has the blue lineage to it? I am still rather new to the color breeding of the fish. With cats it is sooo much easier and there are cheat charts for colors and breeding numbers for example....the top line of the chart is the parent 1 (sire)colors running horizontally and parent two(dam) runs vertically. The color possiblities are put where the crosses meet. like mat blue to a mat blue result is....and placed where the colors meet and so on and so on Like a Blue bred to a Metallic red 70% wild coloration 20% red other will depigmintize (just a fake number LOl dont know the truth in it but that seems to be close to real from my experience ). the same is used for breeding numbers 0 being pure like breeding a 0 to a f1 you'l get a f1 but breeding a f2 to a 0 gets a f3 and so on placed in a chart for those to understand and simplify. I dont know if this could be used as a possibility to simplify some of the color possiblities for people.

parent 1 blue | M-blue | Calico| red| m-red|
parent 2
blue | blue | 1/2 Mb&B |
M-blue | | |
calico | | |
red | | |
m-red |wild | wild |

[sc569]

To afertuna,

Think of the calio goldfish as a tortoiseshell/calico in cats. The pattern/color is due to a random loss of pigment cells as they migrate from the dorsal (back) midline structure called the neural crest during embryonic development. The pattern is random but can be influenced by genetics although it is rather dicey.

For example, a lot of my fish are turning out to have a red/yellow head with a mainly white body - the typical red cap pattern. These are interesting as the amount of black speckling and blue can come out in the mainly white body.

In a red fish, the blue combined with the red simply makes for a muddy color. Sort of like a brindled dog but less neat.

So, the best way of getting a blue calico is to remove the red. Ergo, many people want to get a blue metallic. However, as I mentioned before, many blues are really red/white sarassas that have not demelanized.

Ideally, a real blue metallic is the ideal choice. However, the black speckling will be muted. Not sure how it will turn out!

I do like the red pigment. A fish that is mainly blue/white is not necessarily appealing to me. I have seen pandas and I don't really like them.

[vicsveils]

Here are pictures of two 2 year old veiltail males that were spawned with the yearling female.

One of the breeder males is a yearling metallic veiltail male that is a brother to the yearling female. He is the one with the caudal fins that are much more upright.



I have three left of the spawn from last year that grew very well over the winter keeping the tanks warmer - the calico turned red and white on me though . please let me know when you have a doz or so young available for me to buy , i would like to continue the move towards getting a calico that will hold the blue . thanks vic

[vicsveils]

also calico celestial poms if there is a breeder there i would like to find new blood on these strains that may have come from gunns farm
i appreciate any thoughts on this from any one thank you very much
vic medore