Wen Surgery on an Oranda Goldfish

[*Ci*]

Sunday, May 10, 2009

Subject:
5 year old male Oranda. For the past 12 months he has gradually stopped swimming much and just sits on the bottom till food comes.
He obviously can not see well and bumps into things in his hurry to eat.
I decided to trim his wen to uncover his eyes and reduce the bulk a little.

Before wen trim:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/361128191.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/361128193.jpg

Research:

http://thegab.org/Articles/SurgeryWen.html

\http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86876

http://www.texaskoi.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTFIMd8vpDw&feature=related

Procedure:

Laid out my tools - sterilized with Hydrogen peroxide. Towel and pan to lay the fish in. Good light. Batteries in the camera!

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/004.jpg

The recipe for anesthesia is 5 drops per gallon of water (I used tank water), add more drops up to 10 if the fish does not go under after 10 min.
First put it in a jar with water and shake vigorously to mix well. I used 10 drops for 2 gallons of water.

Put the fish in. Red streaking immediately set in on his tail fin.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/016.jpg

[*Ci*]

After 2 minutes he rolled to his side and at exactly 10 min. he stopped all movement except shallow breathing.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/017.jpg

I read that the gelatinous wen material is a little tough to cut so I tried various tools -
a nail clipper to start, using blunt tweezers to lift the wen away from his eyes:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/018.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/019.jpg

[*Ci*]

It was proving difficult - the wen sort of slips out as you close the clippers. I tried some flush cutting bonsai nippers. They worked slightly better:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/020.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/024.jpg

Starting to look good. Every few minutes I put him back in the clove water for 30 sec. or so.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/027.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/029.jpg

[*Ci*]

As I trimmed the larger lumps and sticking out bits of wen, it got harder to get a grip on it.
I wanted to get more bulk off so I tried I tried some regular scissors, until I simply could not get any more off.
Maybe a scalpel would have worked, but I was reluctant to try one, fearing it would be too easy for it to slip.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/034.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/038.jpg

This is what came off:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/046.jpg

The actual trimming took about 15 min. (with 2 dips back into the clove water).
From what I had read there should have been no bleeding, but I certainly saw red streaks in the wen in spots.
Then it was into a bucket of fresh (tank) water
with air bubbles. He was upright and swimming again after about 10 min.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/044.jpg

[*Ci*]

And back home with a handsome new coif! After a few hours the red in both his tail and his wen had subsided almost completely.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/048.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/049.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/Indoor%20fish/Wen%20Surgery/052.jpg

He ate some food at the afternoon feeding, but is not swimming much (as usual!) I will update his progress after a a week, maybe, or if I notice any changes in the meantime.

[suphi]

Excellent thread and photos! I'm not sure it'll help his swimming but should help with vision, and the fish cosmetically looks better with trimmed wen.

The wen slipped on you because the equipments aren't surgical grade (i.e. not sharp enough), but you still got the job done. I think it was a successful surgery in the end. Now you just have to watch out for infection.

[eros]

Excellent job with the surgery and the detailed step by step pictures:worship:. Besides using surgical instruments, perhaps another person could have helped you on this surgery. He holds and then you cut- 2 surgeons.

Thank you for sharing the pictures. I hope he recuperates well.


**This should be a stickie.

[*Ci*]

Thank you. Good point about the instruments - they seemed very sharp, but not surgical. I guess it would make a world of difference.
I don't think more hands would have helped, though. It would have felt crowded. I was comfortable with using the tweezers with one hand and cutting with the other - being able to feel everything, if you know what I mean.

It is two days later and he certainly sees better - finds his food fast and his eyes follow me when I walk near the tank.

[bekko]

You don't need surgical instruments, just a new pair of good (Revlon) cuticle scissors from the pharmacy. It is sort of scary working around the eye with scissors which have a sharp tip. But, the pointed tip helps to get under the wen so it can be cut off cleanly.

-steve

[thomasn]

:worship: thanks for the pics. the fish looks really good with his haircut :thumbUp:

[Veil Gal]

This surgical posting was very well done and fascinating. I am also intrigued by the potted plants in your tank. What are they and what is the potting medium? I would like to try this in a bare bottom tank. Thank you. And keep us posted on the oranda's recovery.

[*Ci*]

This surgical posting was very well done and fascinating. I am also intrigued by the potted plants in your tank. What are they and what is the potting medium? I would like to try this in a bare bottom tank. Thank you. And keep us posted on the oranda's recovery.

The plants are potted in glass vases using Eco-complete + homeade clay fertilizer balls. Large stones are placed on the exposed substrate to keep the goldies from picking at it.

The tank is 6ft (120gal) so you can see that these plants are big!

The large one on the left in a Crinum Natans, the two in the middle are Cryptocoryne wendtii and the far right are various anubias tied to driftwood. There's also a few Marimo balls.

All of these plants have been in the tank with the goldies for many years.
I have 1.5 watts of PC light and I fertilize with the Seachem line and also use Excel for a carbon source.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/cshprd/6616-1.jpg

[HNLim]

Nice "hair job"!

[Casper]

Very informative and nicely done! Your tank looks so clean, I just let the algae grow on the sides/back.

Also I'm surprised the goldfish don't eat the Marimo balls, aren't they balls of food for them?

[eros]

Very informative and nicely done! Your tank looks so clean, I just let the algae grow on the sides/back.

Also I'm surprised the goldfish don't eat the Marimo balls, aren't they balls of food for them?

>Casper: My goldfishes doesnt eat my Marimo balls but what they do is break it apart and thus, clogging the prefilter.

[WakinAZ]

If you trim the wen on an adult oranda with a fully developed wen, will the wen grow back and block the eyes again? In other words, do you have to keep trimming the wen?

[fish don't sweat]

I hope not, I have recently trimmed the wens on mine.

[bekko]

Yes, it usually grows back eventually. But, you may not have to deal with again for a year.

When the wen completely covers the eyes and the fish has a hard time getting around and eating its health often slowly deteriorates and it may not survive another year. If the eye is only partially obstructed then it will be fine.

-steve

[TheTruth]

i have been doing this for 30 yrs.get an exato knife and gently lift the wen from the eye.it will pull away.now trim .i usually put the fish on a wet towl.sometimes i justhold the fish by the side of the pond. the wen grows back quickly.fish that are blinded by the wen adjust and still find food if they are healthy

[nygold]

I have an Oranda with a large dome shaped wen that started to encroach one of it's eyes. It started to affect it feeding. I was putting off this so called surgery but I finally pulled the trigger.
This was much easier than I thought.
I held the fish upside down (belly up) half in the water then when the fish calmed down I took a sharp scissor and snip-snip it was done.
Granted I didn't have much to remove it was less than a 20 second procedure. It's a little scary working so close to it's eye but it worked.
Thanks guys for the info in this thread.
My fish will now have a better quality of life because of you guys.

[aimeekat]

i have an oranda about 4 1/2 inches. its cheeks are growing up over its eyes (75-80% covered already) he seems happy and healthy, only thing i notice is that when he eats i have to feed him floating oranda or he darts to bottom to get the sinking food and hits his head. is it possible for him to live happy life without a wen trim or am i most likely going to have to do this procedure. i know this probably stupid question but does it make any difference that it is cheeks coming up instead of head flopping over (guess i am hoping for a positive answer lol) i put him in different tank now than fish i feed blood worms because i have noticed a very big jump in wen growth since i started about 4 weeks ago, i hope that helps some. is there anything else i can do to help this not get worse he seems to see very well except when he used to try to get to the ranchus sinking food (little piglet).

[aimeekat]

forgot to attatch the pictures. here are some photos of cheeky. not sure if it helps to see him.

[johnatoranchu]

You don't need surgical instruments, just a new pair of good (Revlon) cuticle scissors from the pharmacy. It is sort of scary working around the eye with scissors which have a sharp tip. But, the pointed tip helps to get under the wen so it can be cut off cleanly.

-steve

This is precisely the method I use Steve. Simple, fast and effective.
John

[TheTruth]

This is precisely the method I use Steve. Simple, fast and effective.
John

the wen pulls away from the eye if you press slightly under the eye allowing cutting to take place .i dont know if this was mentioned as i am in a rush.saw your latest printout and like the proposed ranchu look good luck john h