Wakin

[Sabine]

Another spawn to raise: Guenther's wakin spawned last week and the fry are just hatching. I only removed a few plants with eggs and syphoned out a few dozen more - most were left to the parents.
I guess there will be enough to keep me busy anyway :)

[cowiche ponder]

very cool!

[Sabine]

After culling about 50% I am left with ~180 fry. Just moved them from the 5 gallon to a 30 gallon breeder tank.
I'm a bit unsure about culling for tails. Some look very good from top, tails almost spread horizontally - but those don't look as good from the side.
Then there are those that are beautiful from the side, tails forming a 90 degree angle. And anything in between. Are there wakin standards anywhere?

[mikeno]

I use this YouTube-wakin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKZTmVRd_EU&feature=related) as a standard until I can find a real one. I like the fish’s back and belly forming two arches. The tail is rather flat as it should be in a top viewed fish I think.

I got the same tailforms in my breeding and have kept the 90s and flatter. I’m planning to keep some flat TVW (top viewed wakins) for breeding and if I can find some space raise the SVW (side viewed wakins) and sell them to pet shops were they will be viewed and sold from side…

There was also a lot of fry with the dorsal fin more or less absent.

Will add pics.

[bekko]

You do not want the tail to be either too spread or too flat. These can not swim well and will look spastic when kept with better wakin.

-steve

[mikeno]

Ok , a horizontal 180 is too much I agree, but to me 90 is not wide enough. The YouTube-fish is very close to the border of flattiness I think. 135 degrees could be the thing.

My guess is that there should be two separated fins. Of course viewed from above the spread is important, 180 look cool but I think it could be too much. 135 degrees here to?

[Sabine]

Thanks to both of you. I guess I'll have to cull the sideview pretty ones (any fish with less than 90 degree is already culled) and concentrate on topview.
I had some of the tsugarus with horizontal tail, and noticed they can't swim well.
Interesting you found some with missing/partial dorsal fin, I found a spiky too, and guess there are some more partials. Ranchu blood in there to get the arched back?
There was also a huge fantail participating in spawning activity, so there might be some Watonai developing too.
Oh, and this morning they are spawning again - it's gonna be caviar for the parents. Can't raise another batch.
At what age can I judge the colour development? So far I've only raised calico fish, and don't have a clue how long it takes to be able to judge their patterns, so important with wakin.

[bekko]

Having a 180 degree tail when they are adult is ideal. But if the tail is 180 as a juvenile then it may be too stiff. You have to watch the way it moves.

If the fantail participated then you should already see watonai tails in the group.

Half to three-quarters will be full red (orange) and these are impossible to find homes for. Remove the full red as they demelanize to make room for the patterned fish and help move the process along. Keep anything with a pattern. The intensity of the red will improve as they grow.

-steve

[Guenther]

Dear goldfish friends

In this moment I only can see here from Germany what happens with my young Wakin far away in Canada.
Good job Sabine, thanks a lot! Coming back soon. http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/good.gif

For me, I mostly find my Wakin standard in the Wakin images at http://www.raingarden.us/goldfish-wakin.htm
Gorgeous fishes, Steve!

> Having a 180 degree tail when they are adult is ideal. But if the tail is 180 as a juvenile then it may be too stiff. You have to watch the way it moves.

An important sentence I think! Tnx.
In this age, the fish are less than 3 weeks old, a tail with 90 degree angle from the top like the fish in mikeno's avatar is not bad. We have to watch how it develop.

Regards

[Guenther]

Additional, this is the tail I would prefer in this age:

http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/wakin_fry.jpg

If I would select wrongly, Steve please give me your comment.

Happy fishkeeping

[bekko]

Yes, you are correct.

-steve

[Sabine]

Update on the wakin spawn: they are a little over 5 weeks old. A few are turning very dark now:

http://www.shubunkin.de/images/wakinfry5weeks.jpg

[Guenther]

Our Canadian wakin are now 3.5 month old, most have changed colour:

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/wakin_150809.jpg

[Guenther]

The cross of Wakin and American fantail (ribbon tail) produced nice and proper British style fantail with rounded fins.


http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/fantail_150809.jpg

[WakinAZ]

Regarding body type and tail angle, I like this one better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQlsR-E5lWA&NR=1 - it's all in the eye of the beholder. I wonder how big these fish are in the videos? Look to be about 10 - 12 inches US, nice and stout.

As far as the tails, I like mine in the 90 degree angle range, not flat side-to-side. I keep my wakin inside in tanks, so they are side-view fish currently. I like my fish to swim *with* their tail to some degree, rather than swim *in spite of (dragging)* their tail. I am not interested in showing my fish, I just like looking at them, probably in the minority here.

[Veil Gal]

Eric, I don't show my goldfish, but I am striving to breed good fish and enjoy them. I am fascinated by genetics and breeding. I have been showing and breeding dogs for 34 years. I have had Pembroke Welsh Corgis since 1983.
I bet there are other people on this board who breed fish, but don't show. I have been told that the fish that are shown, do not live long due to the stress of exhibition. Not sure how accurate that is. Perhaps others can fill us in?:youtellme:

[Guenther]

In this video you can see some of our selected Wakin and one cross between Wakin and American fantail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd6Muzdmqj4

[Guenther]

In our batch of wakin this one is different from all others.
What do you think about the colour and bodyshape? (Bekko?)

http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/blue_metallic_wakin.jpg

[bekko]

Nice one. A spontaneous blue wakin? I guess it's possible. Could either be the blue mutation happened anew or expression of an out-cross in its ancestry. Body is on the short side but may not be outside the normal range of what you can find in wakin.

-steve

[Guenther]

Tnx for your answer Steve.

> A spontaneous blue wakin? I guess it's possible.

There were some more darker fry in the batch. But I culled a lot of fishes for good tails, probabely this blue wakin was one of the darker fry.

> Body is on the short side but may not be outside the normal range of what you can find in wakin.

Here I show you some red white siblings. They are much bigger.
When I feed heavily I noticed that the body shape becomes higher.

http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/red_metallic_wakin.jpg

[Guenther]

The same Wakin viewed from the top - 4.5 month old

http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/redwhite_wakin.jpg

[Guenther]

The blue is gone... the same wakin 3 month later.

http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/wakin2009.jpg

[bekko]

One advantage of the brown patches is that there will be a red/white pattern if the blue/black is lost.

-steve

[nygold]

Strange thing about the 2 pictures is the eye to body ratio seems to have changed.
What some people believe to be a tell tale sign of a stunted fish is evident in the first picture but not in the second.
This is a good sign, it's a tiny piece of evidence that says this trend can possibly be fixed.
Guenther can you tell us how the size of this once blue fish compares to the others?

Thanks

[Guenther]

Guenther can you tell us how the size of this once blue fish compares to the others?


Nygold, you have sharp eyes!:exact:

This fish was one of the smalest amoung his siblings.
He is now in a separate tank with slow fat ranchu and so finally has a chance to eat. He seams to have a vision problem and picks beside the foot that's why he is stunted.
His siblings are almost double his size.

[nygold]

Wow that's wild huh.
Please let us know if he catches up with the rest of the pack.
Thanks again.

[Guenther]

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/291209.jpg

8 month old wakin

[afnaveils]

It's hard to tell which fish are from the cross and which are not. The tails look similar. I guess the cross are those on the left.

Are the parents the ones you bought from The Fish Sempai?

[Guenther]

Hi Gerard

It's hard to tell which fish are from the cross and which are not. The tails look similar. I guess the cross are those on the left.


:yess: the cross is the bigger fish with shorter body and all red tail on the left side top and bottom


Are the parents the ones you bought from The Fish Sempai?

yes

[Guenther]

8 month old rw wakin and one cross fantail/wakin

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/wakin_291209.jpg

[afnaveils]

Great job, Guenther!!:thumbUp:

[Guenther]

They are doing well, waiting to go outside:

loq8L0CueNc

There is one with darker red dots. As young fish it was the only blue one!

Any ideas?

[Guenther]

New pics from today:

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/13092011_1.jpg

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/13092011_2.jpg

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/13092011_3.jpg

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/13092011_4.jpg

[Guenther]

More new pics from today:

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/13092011_5.jpg

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/13092011_6.jpg

http://www.shubunkin.de/wakin/images/13092011_7.jpg

[cchoi]

Beautiful fish!

[devins23]

Very nice, i like the brightness of the red colors!