Keeping Tosakin?

[flaringshutter]

Hey all, I am considering purchasing a couple young tosakin and trying out this new variety. I can't find any real info on adult size, recommended food or filtration for these fish. Do you think these would be a good variety with which to use a RUGF filter with a thin layer of gravel? I'm thinking that might maximize filter flow while minimizing current.
Additionally, I'm curious as to how to determine which young fish will develop into quality adults. I know that's the million dollar question, but I'm just looking for some guidance since I have not seen many comparisons between what any one fish looks like as an adult and what it looked like as a six-month-old or so. So while I can easily see the desirable traits in young comets or shubunkins, I have no points of reference for tosakin. Any advice?

[bekko]

Tosakin are a top-view fish. To put them in an aquarium is something of a waste because the tail is very flat and in the side view you do not see much of anything.

The traditional way to keep them is in a shallow earthenware bowl about 18 to 36 inches in diameter. They are managed with routine water exchange, no aeration and no filtration. They need the confinement and lack of current to minimize their activity and prevent them from ruining the tail.

In a shallow container, gentle aeration does not seem to be a problem. The water movement created by aeration is a function of the depth of aeration. In deeper water the travel time of the rising bubbles is increased and this increases water movement. If the air stone is only several inches below the surface then it generates enough surface turbulence to maintain oxygen without generating a current. However, the surface turbulence also makes it hard to see and appreciate the fish.

In the west, we get nervous if there is no filtration. The UGF will give you the filtration without the current. The only draw-back is the usual concern about using gravel and the possibility of channelization, anaerobic pockets and Aeromonas/Pseudomonas build-up.

I have used small HOB's with modified overflows to minimize current. The fish did fine. However, the overflow modifications do not look attractive at all. Still working on that one.

The tosakin tail continues to develop for several years. However, you can select those with the potential to develop a good tail when they are only a month-or-so old. Just look for a tail spread of nearly 180 degrees and a rounded posterior lobe. The body should be tear-drop shaped and the head slightly pointed.

The tricky part is that many, perhaps most, do not live up to their potential. The largest problem seems to be having the fish hold the tail to one side as it gets older. This can happen any time right up until old age. I do not know how to predict when or if that will happen. Still working on that one too. Tosakin are also prone to curled gill opercula. They are not particularly prone to swim bladder problems.

Tosakin seem to develop best if you do not try to push the growth. Let them come up slowly.

-steve

[flaringshutter]

Thanks for all the great info, Steve! I was thinking of getting a tank custom made, about 6-8 inches in depth and 12x48 footprint, so as to encourage proper tail growth and enable easy top view. I have a cat, and an unpredictable day job, so bowling just isn't really an option.
Since UGF can create big problems, I thought a reverse UGF with regular gravel vacuuming might minimize the buildup of waste and anaerobic gas. I would likely use a mini canister filter, then plumb the outlet through the RUGF. That way I would only be pushing clean water up through the gravel. Perhaps I could run airstones at the corners only - might that help the tail shape by effectively rounding out the corners of the tank, and also aerating?
Last question - do tosakin grow to the ryukin/oranda size in body length/depth?

[bekko]

Not quite as large as a ryukin or oranda. The body grows to about 4.5 inches.

Tosakin are cat bait. Flashy, but slow swimmers. Bowl or glass tank, you can use either a lot of freeboard or a screen/cover.

Tosakin were bred to be like little lap dogs. Somewhat delicate, but kept close at hand so they can be watched closely and easily appreciated. Young ones do well and are fun to keep in a bowl on the kitchen counter or desk.

I keep saying bowl but do not mean the usual glass globe. More like a dish pan or koi bowl. Some bonsai pots are ideal after you plug the hole with hydraulic cement.

-steve

[zph2k]

Steve,
Could you tell me where I can find earthenware bowl of 18 to 36 inches in diameter? I saw porcelain/ceramic bowls in some pictures that people in Asia used to keep their goldfish. I always wonder where I can get such kind of bowls here in U.S.

zaw

[small_ranchu]

http://www.simikoi.com/images/categories/C78.jpg

How about koi viewing bowl?
http://www.simikoi.com/prod78.html

[bekko]

Hi Zaw. I didn't realize you were here.

Pottery Barn and Waccamaw Pottery used to be the places to get bowls, but Pottery Barn has turned into a furniture store and Waccamaw went out of business. You might check Home Despot and garden centers for ceramics. If there is a local bonsai club ask where they get pots. I don't think the material matters much so it is whatever looks good to you. Glazed ceramic, terracotta, treated concrete, plastic, whatever. Fred, those blue koi bowls are just the right size.

Not to rub your face in it, but we have a great place for that sort of thing here. These two guys import all sorts of earthenware, cerammic and stoneware from Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia. They have two acres of stuff to prowl through. I have my eye on a huge one for water lilies and goldfish which is about five feet in diameter and eighteen inches deep. It's not cheap though. I could send one to you, but the shipping would be even more outrageous.

-steve

[zph2k]

steve,
I have been looking around the wed and got an idea for tosakin bowl. found some stainless steel fire bowl . They come in large size and prices are reasonable. Any advice on it?

http://www.fixtureuniverse.com/FirePitTables/-Stainless-Steel-Fire-Pit_3474554.html

[Ranchumaniax]

where exactly are you located? Because the container where you putting Tosakin are depending on your area temperature!

[zph2k]

I am in Maryland. I am looking for the bowl for indoor use.

[Ranchumaniax]

If u plan on keeping them indoor and u believe that your water temperature not going to be lower than 70-75F. I would said that you not really need to keep them in round shape container! If the temp will be lower, then round shape container would be needed!

[thomasn]

If u plan on keeping them indoor and u believe that your water temperature not going to be lower than 70-75F. I would said that you not really need to keep them in round shape container! If the temp will be lower, then round shape container would be needed!

can you explain please? why is round shape container needed for low temperature?

[bekko]

Zaw, that's a really neat bowl !! Complete with cat-proof cover.

-steve

[Ranchumaniax]

can you explain please? why is round shape container needed for low temperature?

As low temperature making the fish has slow movement. In the result of slow movement, there will be less or no water current. Without water current, It'll effect tail of Tosakin. The idea of bowl is to make fish swim in circle, and with water current cause from fish swimming helping/making the ideal of "Tosa Tails". Without water current, their tails will be too strong and hard.

However, once the fish are in high temperature, fish always swimming and all.
No need to worry about the Current.

I hope that you understand what i try to explain, but my English is not that great.

[thomasn]

As low temperature making the fish has slow movement. In the result of slow movement, there will be less or no water current. Without water current, It'll effect tail of Tosakin. The idea of bowl is to make fish swim in circle, and with water current cause from fish swimming helping/making the ideal of "Tosa Tails". Without water current, their tails will be too strong and hard.

However, once the fish are in high temperature, fish always swimming and all.
No need to worry about the Current.

I hope that you understand what i try to explain, but my English is not that great.

it makes perfect sense to me, thank you!

[flaringshutter]

So Tosakin are bowled to encourage them to always be swimming, which makes the tail better? I thought bowling and using no filtration reduced current, which encouraged the classic "tosa tail". Am I wrong?

[flaringshutter]

For those of you looking for enamel bowls, I found the hookup - search ebay for "wash basin" or "enamel bowl" and sort by lowest price. There are at least a dozen on there right now.

For those looking for a tosakin bowl for a good price, this bowl is probably the one I will end up getting:
http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com/shop/index.php?page=shop-flypage-21443#

About 8.5 gallons, filled to within an inch of the top. Not the biggest around, but a nice medium size.