Wen Trimming

[*Ci*]

I would like to hear your thoughts on wen trimming.

I am considering a wen trim on a large Oranda. The fish is a 5 years old male, and, for about the last 12 mo., is very inactive. He is enthusiastic at feeding, but cannot see well, bumps into walls, etc. trying to find the food. He does not swim at other times and I believe this is due to his heavy head.

I have searched the internet for wen trim info and have found good pics and descriptions here and there - I'll post links if anyone is interested.
But before I attempt the surgery, I'd like to hear some additional expert opinions on the matter. Has anyone here trimmed a wen?

Thanks,
Ci

[bekko]

There are more likely to be problems with a fish this old and one which has been inactive for so long. It may not be able to see after the wen is trimmed. The usual recommendation is to first knock it out with clove oil. Personally, on a fish this old I would try it without the clove oil first. For me, the critical things are a good pair of cuticle scissors, plenty of light and a strong pair of reading glasses. Work in a white pan or bowl just deep enough to cover the fish. You can cut with the fish in or out of the water. You can probably slip your thumb nail under the wen and lift it away from the eye as you cut. Take your time and give the fish and yourself a rest after every snip.

-steve

[*Ci*]

Hmmm. What additional problems do you think will happen - just that maybe he won't see well?
The wen does not completely cover the eyes right now - I think it will be fairly easy to lift up "flaps" to trim around the eyes.

I think that removing some bulk might help improve his swimming ability . . .

I'm surprised to hear that 5 yrs is considered old!?

I was going to use clove oil - do you think his age will affect his ability to survive the anesthesia? I did not even consider not using it -
but I guess it is possible that he will not have the strength to flop around much.
I could have the clove water ready and make the judgement call when I get him out for the surgery

Thanks for your thoughts, Steve

P.S. Here is the fish (same as my avatar - when he was younger)

[flaringshutter]

I might try it with a very weak clove oil solution first, and up the dose if necessary. Although you might not want to knock him out, I imagine there are nerves in the wen that you'll want to dull and besides, if he can see under all that wen, once his eyes are uncovered a little bit he might get twitchy with those scissors so close to them.

[*Ci*]

I've always understood that there were no nerve endings in the wen - ?

In any case, I wonder if a partial knockout would be safer than full unconsciousness - any one else have an opinion on this?

Has anyone else here done successful wen surgeries?

[Sabine]

I have done it once. The oranda had a huge wen (covering the eyes) with a small body that seemed to not be able to support the head. He had been struggling to swim for months.
Though the fish survived the operation, I ended up putting him down anyways
maybe a week later, because he just kept floating on his back.
So what it means is: there may be other things wrong with the fish, and trimming the wen may not be the solution.

[mikroll]

I've always understood that there were no nerve endings in the wen - ?

In any case, I wonder if a partial knockout would be safer than full unconsciousness - any one else have an opinion on this?

Has anyone else here done successful wen surgeries?

I can give you link to pictures of wen trim procedure by a vet if you wish

[suphi]

I've never done surgery in fish, but I've done plenty of surgical procedures (around a thousand) in small mammals in the past. I think that your best best is to avoid partial sedation because if they start to move you can cut or poke in the wrong place, and it may lead to grave outcome.

[joe]

I would explore all other options to his inactivity before wen trimming. I am not a fan of it unless covering the gill plates and restricted respiration. Do a microscope scrape and rule other pathogens first. A lot of times with these older fish they often become egg bound or some kind of internal organ disease such as kidney failure, rule out these things first before wen trim

[*Ci*]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting points that I will consider.

The fish is male - so not egg bound. His inactivity has certainly been very gradual over the course of his life, so I am inclined to believe that it is not due to a pathogen.
Kidney failure or internal organ malfunction - possible, but then there is not much to lose by trying the trim.
My fish are all inexpensive pet store fish - I do care greatly about their welfare, and provide the best husbandry I can, but am not averse to trying the trim as an experiment and a learning experience. And the added plus that it might improve the quality of the fishes life.

I will document and post if and when I proceed . . .