Question for the Breeders

[afertuna]

Ok so I know many of us have projects and certain strains we are trying to save and or bring back. I am interested in finding out other peoples projects or as a community things to work twards. For example

Philidelphia Veiltails- I am working on a blue strain and a Calico with blue strain and I want to work harder on true Veil finnage without scissor tails
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh81/afertuna/DSC04584.jpg

In My Bristols I am working on stronger tails with black finnage and black with white lacing.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh81/afertuna/IMG_1023.jpg

I also for fun have been working on a dbl tailed Bristol (Not mixing into my regular line its a seperate line)They are dbl tailed dbl anal......

Id like to see what all you are doing and like to also hear if there are some things we need to work on as a community.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Allen,
This continues to be an issue with Veils. Even Foster complains about it, it seems that several things are going on; some fish are born squared tails while others grow into the squareness in year two. While it is easy to say just breed a square tailed to a square tailed fish, my experience suggests that the fish don't necessarily agree with our goals. Also I tend to have the most success breeding Veils when I enter a chop tail into the mix, this statement goes back to a theory by Streamson Chua who feels that the Veiltail is a mathing of at least four genes ( I will have to look for his old post of several years ago). When you breed Veiltail to Veiltail for several generations, you end up with a lethal expression that results in Midgets ( tiny perfect veils that never get over 2"). He seemed to think that breeding for homozygosity ( is that a word) of the veil gene resulted in these runts. So I tend to greed a chop tail into my veils much of the time. This results in a lower veiltail count in the fry but the fish get much larger and have more vigor.:youtellme:
Another issue seems to be that if you select early for the squarest tails you end up with longer tailed fishes. These are great until the age of 2.5 years and then they tend to tire of pulling around that be tail. The end result is to try and breed shorter tailed specimens.
Attached are some pics of Fosters new red and white line, at 6 months these are still slightly forked. Perhaps we can get the Ambassador to chime in?

As for me I found a butterfly normal eyed uncolored fish in my mix this year and I am going to try to improve squareness in this direction... I need more than 84 tanks and tubs.>:)
Gary

[afertuna]

Gary,
Thanks for the added information. I know last time we talked you spoke about choptails.....Youll have to excuse my ignorance but exactly is a choptail?The main problem I have been getting in the breeding of the veils is a pinched tail.I have thought about using butterflies in the breeding program to help adjust that problem. I would love to see the information you have on the lethal gene. The ones I got from you are doing great i will have to post some pics of them soon. here are some more of my breeders these are one year olds.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh81/afertuna/IMG_1020.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh81/afertuna/DSC04733.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh81/afertuna/DSC04695.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh81/afertuna/goldfish/DSC04516.jpg

[Cincy Ranchu]

These are the fish from a veiltail spawn that are not Veiltails, they picked up the name chop tail as they typically have an angled tail or a faintail like appearance. I am attaching a picture of a gaggle of fisg the second from the top with its' hea pointed to the right is whay I talking about. Still looking for the Chua piece, it might be a while.:youtellme:

[demdamdemekins]

Amazing goldies guys. Pardon the ignorance, but are you selecting away from the swallow type finnage? It seems to fit them so well. The caudal on the 2nd bronze you posted is just stunning Afer! It's times like these I wish I had unlimited tank space.

[afertuna]

From everything that I have read and with speaking to the judges they stray away from the swallow or ribbon tail with the Philidelphias. Gary or Al would be better to ask about them I have been only dealing with them for the last couple of years I am definantly a novice when it comes to them. I stared off as more of a koi guy showing and breeding and got hooked on the goldfish. The Bronze did extreamly well at the show this year and I am sure she will do better this year. I have some of the hardest people to show against in here in Portland they have many years experience(25 years for some), some are Judges and they have the money LOL!!!!I atleast hold my own and have pride in what I have raised myself. I think Larry & Pat Christiansen's beat my Phillies with a amazing red that I am sure it was an Al Foster fish and it was very impressive. I cant wait I bought some Veils from Gary a few months ago and when they are ready I will do some crossing of my 3 lines.They are truly one of the most beautiful fish and I hope that more people will get as hooked as I am with them.

[afnaveils]

Hi all,

Three years ago I bought 6 veiltails from Al Foster. Unfortunately, all of them turned out to be males and I could not make it to the last 2 Breeders Socials to get a female from friends there. Now, I only have 3 of Al's Veils left and I've been thinking of rebuilding from them. What would be my best choice a ryukin with little hump or an oranda? I know that an oranda was used to recreate these Japanese goldfish and Gary Hater also used an oranda in one of his outcrosses. Any suggestion?

Gerard

[jinyu_fan]

I am fairly new to the hobby and not a breeder but am interested in learning. I am just wondering why outcrosses cannot be made to a fantail to maintain the body shape of the original veiltails I see in old goldfish books. To me, the shape of a ryukin is that of muscle and power and does not look right combine with the veiltail. I guess I only have the old pictures to judge from - just a thought.

[afertuna]

Hey there,
Well I have heard of different acceptable crosses. I know with talking to Gary some of the first were outcrossed with Orandas. I know Janet Perdue uses Demikins and I have even heard of some using Fantails with the breeding.I am going to try a couple different ways. I know with Demikins (Gary correct me if I am wrong) it takes at least three generations to get away from the globe eyes.

[bekko]

If you pick through a ryukin spawn you will find some with a fantail-like body and a full drooping tail which is somewhat reminiscent of a veiltail. Old style ryukin will yield more of these but not many people intentionally breed crappy ryukin. Anyway, if you need to do an outcross to bring in new blood this might be a place to look for breeders.

-steve

[johnatoranchu]

Hi all,

Three years ago I bought 6 veiltails from Al Foster. Unfortunately, all of them turned out to be males and I could not make it to the last 2 Breeders Socials to get a female from friends there. Now, I only have 3 of Al's Veils left and I've been thinking of rebuilding from them. What would be my best choice a ryukin with little hump or an oranda? I know that an oranda was used to recreate these Japanese goldfish and Gary Hater also used an oranda in one of his outcrosses. Any suggestion?

Gerard

Hi Gerard
Happy New Year.
I thought it was generally accepted that the Veiltail was "created" initially in America (and then adopted by us brits) through selective breeding of "the Japanese Fringetail", now universally known as the Ryukin; with the Oranda in turn thought by many, including Matsui, to have been produced by crossing the Fringetail with the Ranchu. Please, please, please do not consider trying to develop Veils by crossing them to Orandas (although the reverse, that is crossing Orandas to Veils to produce broadtail Orandas is an excellent cross - I have/am making some super Orandas that way. Ideally a Veiltail should have a slender fine head but put Oranda blood into it and the fine head is immediately destroyed and the broader skull structure of the Oranda will feature in the fry for generations to come. Even without any direct Oranda influence, there is a tendency, at least in UK strains, for Veils to develop "excess fleshy growth" around the head to such an extent that we are now disqualifying such fish from the show bench. Surely, there must be good Veils available in the States if not in Canada, but if you cannot obtain such stock then I would suggest that the ONLY SUITABLE other variety to consider as an outcross would be the Ryukin. I saw some excellent examples of broadtail Ryukin on the show bench when I was in Chicago and these could provide you with a useful out cross particularly the calico group in view of their smaller, often non-existant, hump. Are you a member of the American Goldfish Association - photos of these fish often appear in their on-line show reports.
Hope to see you at Gary's in 2009.
Have a good season.
John

[Daryl]

I have been working to get a fair line of broadtail Ryukins going. I started with a few outstanding fish that I bought and have crossed back to create 2 lines. I have only gotten it to two generations (I am VERY new at this).

In the linnage, I am finding a lot of Veil-type heritage. I have been talking to many - and the general concensus is that the Veil tail was heavily used to create the broadtail type finnage in the Ryukin Broadtail that seem to be getting more and more common these days.

I have one quite large and strong calico Ryukin/Veiltail cross that I got when a good fish keeper died. (:( ). This fish is being prepped to be crossed into my line of BT Ryukins this coming spring (I hope) - to bring still more finnage into the line. I fully expect that I should get a fair number of "Veil/Ryukin" mixes that lean heavily towards the veil and less towards the Ryukin. Most that I had this year I culled.....

Perhaps if you were to look into finding the "lesser quality" BT Ryukins that are being sold for not a lot of bucks - they frequently do not have the deep humps - and lessor bodies than a Ryukin. They may be able to bring that BT into your Veils..........???

[afertuna]

this is the information from the Goldfish societies website


The American "Philadelphia" Veiltail Goldfish
Probably the most elegant -- and difficult -- tail type in goldfish is the Veiltail. Also referred to as a broadtail or a fringetail, this large, square-ended double-tail type can occur in any fancy long-tailed breed. Because of the size and delicacy of the finage, fish of this type demand sterling water conditions and care.

The Philadelphia-style Veiltail is a round-bodied fish with normal eyes and no adornments besides the finage. The fish has a short, deep body, as is typical of most fancy double-tailed varieties and a pointed head reminiscent of a Ryukin or Fantail. The dorsal fin is erect and as high as the body is deep. All other fins are double and free-floating: the caudal being fully double and square ended, up to one and half times as long as the body.

History
The Veiltail goldfish has several stories about is origins in America. One of these tales talks about Imperial Goldfish being sent to the city of Chicago, USA from Japan to be exhibited at the Columbian World Fair, which opened May 1, 1893. It was told that these fish became sick, with most of them dying. A few were rescued by William Seale, who was at the fair as the head of the US fish exhibit. At the close of the fair, Seale returned home to Philadelphia with the World Fair fish, and later sold it to Franklin Barrett. With this fish Barrett began the famous line of American, or "Philadelphia" Veils.

Another tale about the start of the American Veil, and perhaps the truth, is given in the Aquarium Magazine of March 1968. On page 55, William Seale gives his account of the World Fair fish. Seale reveals that no live fish were in the Japanese exhibit, only goldfish preserved in jars with alcohol. However, the Wisconsin State Fish Commission had imported from Japan fringetailed Ryukin goldfish for their exhibit at the fair. It was these fish that became sick with fungus and so were not shown at the 1893 Fair. At the end of the fair, Seale saved five or six of the Wisconsin Fringetail. He did return to his home in Philadelphia with the saved goldfish. He did sell one of these goldfish to Barrett for $15. The fish was a pearly, or white metallic male, having no special finnage. Later on it did develop classic fringetail finage. There are no photographs of this fish, but a very nice drawing of it can be seen in Herman T. Wolfe book - Goldfish Breeds, page 46. (1908). The quality of this veil line can be seen in the 1917 Innes book "Goldfish Varieties". A Barrett Veiltail called Sunset is the frontispiece of this book.

Originally the Barrett Veiltail strain was produced from a Japanese Fringetail and a Chinese Telescope Eye with a short but very square tail. John Cugley of Philadelphia imported these Telescope Eye fish and shared them with Barrett to establish a very good line of American Veiltails.

In the 1920's, the Veiltail goldfish abounded in both the US and Britain. There is no certainty as to how precisely the Veiltail got to England. What is important is that the Philadelphia-style Veiltail has flourished in Great Britain in the hands of breeders like Captain Betts, Frank Close, Joe Linnale, and George Fern. By comparison, in the United States the Veiltail was almost lost until the 1970's. The recovery of the Veiltail in the US brings to mind the names of John Anderson and Al Thomma as key proponents of the resurgence of the variety.

Barrett shipped his fish to others and without doubt some of these shipments were International. Two articles in 1950 about Charles Whitehead, in the Portsmouth Evening News and the London Evening Standard, indicate that he was either a source or the origin of the English Veiltails. Whitehead likely obtained his first Veiltails from the US just prior to WWI.

Today
Interested breeders are working cooperatively to try to create robust strains of Philadelphia-style Veiltails. Strategies include the use of imported English stock, and out-crossing with other goldfish varieties, including Telescope Eyes, Ryukins, and Orandas. Great progress has been made, but much work remains to create a variety of stable color variants with a large enough base of breeders to ensure their continuation.



I personally have been using telescopes with my line. The strain I got from Janet Perdum were bred to a Gunn Telescope. only a few of the fry that were sent out to some of us ended up with telescope eyes mostt ended up with Veil caracteristics and amazing tails nearly squared in appearance.