Ranchu

[Daryl]

I now have approximately 9475758427594271 pictures of this fish - sideways, out of focus, backwards, headon..... very few of any quality. I am, clearly, one of the WORST fish photographers there is. But see what you can do with this fish.....

[bigbettadan]

Is the tail pinched? Hard to tell without a top view pic. Tail angle is also set too low for a SVR. For a ranchu, not alot of defination of the futan and headgear. Body too short for top view, ok for side. I hope this helps.


Dan

[Daryl]

I shall try to get better pictures. I do not think the tail is "pinched" but it is a bit tighter than I would prefer. This is DEFINATELY a SV, NOT TV.

I think the tail angle is not properly pictured. I wish I knew how to do a video..... I see a pretty good 45. That silly fish moves SO fast it is hard to get when it is not turning and racing away.

The fish also has a bump on the end of the back.... and that is not seen much or at all in these photos. I cannot seem to rid my fish of that stupid back bump.....

I prefer a SVR to NOT have a lot of headgear or anything. In my opinion, I like a "rounded" wen/head - not so much wen as to take away from the "rounded" look of the whole fish. I want to draw a circle around the side view of the fish and have it touch as much of the arc of the circle as possible. I do NOT want the heavy head of a Lionhead or Lionchu. I find that rather ....uh ..... well, ugly. Such a fish is not a SVR and not a Lionhead. It is a mixed breed. Nothing wrong with mixed breeds, but I do not generally want to produce them... I cull them.

I want a TVR to be a TVR and a SVR to be a SVR, a Chinese Lionhead to be a Chinese Lionhead. I do not want the fish to be moshed into one mediocre fish type.....

JMO :)

[bigbettadan]

When referring to Ranchu head development, I am definately not refering to lionhead development. Ranchus have specific and separate solid headgear pieces such as the futan(front cheek). Lionheads have massive bunched bumpy development thru out the headpiece....... You don't have to agree with my opinion, after all, I am stuffy purist..LOL, but I wanted to make that clarification..........

Dan

[Daryl]

I am old enough to be a proper curmudgeon, too. ;)

I am NOT talking about TVR..... I thoughly agree on those. I am too new at them to be able to be called a "stuffy purist" - but I am quickly leaning towards it. TVR DEFINATELY must have the nice "cheeks" and specific headgrowth conformation to be a good TVR. I have some pretty good Mita from Cincy.... and I really love them. They are developing nicely - having that head type is very specific and a requirement for a TVR.

I feel, however, that a SVR specifically should NOT have that look. That is the Japanese Ranchu look. A SVR is something altogether different. I do not want to see a bastardized Lionhead or a funny round backed shortened TVR. I want that ROUND round round look - and you get that with the very even head growth - basically minus the large futan and the specific divisions of head growth. I want to see a smooth, even, rounded head - but not the overgrown Lionhead look.

I find beauty in that look. It is NOT a TVR. It is NOT a Lionhead. It is NOT a Lionchu. It is a SVR in my opinion.

:)

[bigbettadan]

I see..... We need to come up with a new name for them, to clear up confusion, and leave the "ranchu" name to the Japanese ranchu...

They do look like softballs.....LOL

Dan

[Daryl]

Sounds good to me! Let's get rid of "Lionchus" (keep the massive heads to the flatter backed Chinese Lionhead!) and ditch the name "SVR" for they are NOT Ranchu anyway. They are something other than Ranchu - something that is not a Lionhead and not a mix..... an entity unto itself... a fish meant to be viewed from the side in a "tank" - Western World style.....

[bigbettadan]

Japanese ranchu breeders call them "potatoes" apparently....LOL

I agree with you 100%... SVR is confusing. It just arose for commerical purposes. We ran into the same thing in the betta hobby........ 15 names for blue...LOL

We just need a good flashy name........
Dan

[afnaveils]

As SVRs were developed and improved in Thailand, I guess they could be called Thaichus or Thailandas.

[Daryl]

Thaichu, Thaichu.

Bless you.

[Cincy Ranchu]

I vote for GVR

Glass viewed Ranchu as thye were developed for folks who view the fish in galss tanks. My second choice would be " Orange Taters" or Thai Orange Taters, we could call them Tots, people like little kids:youtellme::confuse::yess:

[bigbettadan]

I don't know..... saying " I like your tots" scares me......LOL

[bekko]

As SVRs were developed and improved in Thailand I prefer the Chinese SVR back to the Thai SVR back. All the Thai fish have a back that slopes gently from the head and then drops abruptly into the tail tuck. As Daryl says, the SVR back should be uniformly rounded and symmetrical. The classic analogy is to the shape of an Asian pocket comb which has a smooth and symmetrical curve. To my eye, Thai SVR are distinctive, but not improved.

It would be an interesting, but difficult, campaign to give SVR a new name in the English-speaking part of the world. Since almost all "ranchu" available in North America and Europe are SVR from China and Malaysia, the name is fairly well entrenched. It would be easier to rename TVR since no one knows what they are anyway. I would propose we call SVR 'ranchu' and call TVR 'buffalo' or 'buffalo-head'. 'Ranchu' means 'handsome' - a term which could apply to just about anything. 'Buffalo-head' is already an established term for the type of head growth found on TVR. TVR conformation is said to give the impression of strength, like the water buffalo. The outward projection of the oya funtan is supposed to be reminiscent of the horns of a water buffalo.

-steve

[afnaveils]

Oh, I'm not sure about that. Although I like the name of Buffalo-head, why give to pseudo-ranchus (Chinese and Thai) the name by which we know the real ranchu variety (TVR)? I'm expecting John Parker to react to this one.:think:

[bigbettadan]

While I see Steve's logic, I believe Ranchu is a Japanese term and should refer to the Japanese Ranchu(TVR).... We need continued growth and education her in the west....

Dan

[Sabine]

Why not just Chinese ranchu and Japanese ranchu? I don't really like the term tvr anyway, it seems to suggest that these fish only look good from the top - a commonly held belief.
And we all know what a Thai ranchu looks like. I think they all are beautiful in their way. Add the land of origin to the name, and we know what we are talking about.

[Daryl]

That may be ok, but one of the main reasons I brought up this thread is that we do NOT all know what a "Thai RAnchu" SHOULD look like. They have morphed into something other than what they should be in the past number of years.

These days, in my opinion, the Thai Ranchu (or Modern SVR) is commonly nothing more than a bastardized TVR wanna-be. It does not have the genetic lineage or breeding to have all the necessary body conformation points of a good TVR, it carrys a heavy Lionhead type head, and the back shape/tail tuck are a mish-mosh of shapes that vary so widely that no one really has settled on the shape it should be.

I REALLY like the idea of officially separating the TVR and the SVR into TWO SEPARATE BREEDS. Give them different names. Keep the names if necessary (but I do agree - TVR and SVR are not only rather misleading, but they are inaccurate and semi-specific - AND.... equally important is the fact that the name "Ranchu" is Japanese..not Thai or Chinese....) but let us decide....

Are we willing to have the SVR become a "Lionchu" (a real mutt in my opinion - a little bit of many things and not enough of any to be beautiful)? Are we willing to accept the SVR as a poor copy of the TVR with less demands on body conformation? Or can we somehow find our way back to the fish that has the "Asian pocket comb" look - a thing of symmetrical beauty and grace.... but something dramatically DIFFERENT from a modern TVR?

[bigbettadan]

It is nice to see someone as passionate about this subject as well.....

I think it is important that AGA taps the minds of breeders, such as Gary, and not just "collectors" as it changes perspective. I hope they tap John Parker as well.........

Dan

[bekko]

Are we willing to have the SVR become a "Lionchu" Daryl, the Chinese SVR with its smooth symmetrical back profile does not have the lionhead wen. As you mentioned above, the lionhead wen would be a distraction for many of us.

officially separating the TVR and the SVR into TWO SEPARATE BREEDS
SVR and TVR have been separate varieties for a long time. They are more distinct than SVR, lionhead and lionchu in terms of their genetic isolation. If one or the other were not called ranchu, then we would not be having this discussion, US shows would not be judging TVR from the side in an aquarium, and the TVR hobby would be more advanced than it is in the western world.

Here in Hawaii the situation is a little different. People have been keeping and breeding TVR for at least fifty years. There have been classical TVR as well as Uno ranchu. When you start splitting hairs, Uno is really a separate variety from the other TVR. Many of the local old-time breeders called their TVR "lionheads". In their circle of friends, everyone knew what "lionhead" meant (a TVR). Most now call TVR "ranchu" but there are still a few guys which use the term "lionhead". We also get the normal influx of Chinese SVR and lionheads in the aquarium trade. So, when someone tells me they want to come look at some "lionheads", it takes a minute of interrogation to figure out what they mean. If it's a kid, they usually mean Chinese-style flat-back lionheads. If it's a gentleman with grey hair, they usually mean TVR. Sometimes you just have to live with life's little inconsistencies.

-steve

[pearlscale_fan]

you people are nuts!(as in i really laughed my head off reading this)
i would like to ask a question:
What do the abbreviations SVR and TVR mean in the first place???
everyone uses them, and i have no clue what they mean:youtellme:
btw, i'm a big fan of ranchus with little puffy fish cheeks and not so much on top
that fish in the photo is very cute (it does look more like a sphere)