Encouraging Reluctant Breeders

[Daryl]

I have no problems preparing and breeding some lines or groups of fish. Others, however, are simply a no go. No matter what I do, they have NO compunction to breed. I know I have both male and female. I have tried separating the sexes, messing with temps and light duration, feeding different diets, etc.

I am wondering if my water may be the cause.... but if it is, why would only some types of fish be affected? (Perhaps the line, itself, is affected as opposed to the specific breed?)

I have very lousy water. I run on a well. The pH runs about 9.6+ out of the well in wet months, but will drop to 8.8ish in drought situations. We have not had a drought for a few years now. I use RO water to "cut" the well water down to a reasonable and stable 8.2.......

Could the high pH, and higher mineral content be affecting breeding abiliies?(kH and gH are both well over 400 from the well. I could throw a fish in straight well water and it would bounce rather than fall INTO the water!). The gH goes down to about 200 with RO additions. I do not, at this time, have enough RO to change 100% and add in "RO RIght" or some such water builder.... and really do not want to go that way, anyway.....

???????????????????

There are a few groups of fish that I have had successfully reproduce several thousand fry - and then NEVER do it again....... I feel like I have failed - and do not know what else to try.

Ideas???

[Fishdork]

Good question, I want to know what others think too.
On the other side of the spectrum, my tap water has kH of about 40 ppm (1-2 degrees), gH about 70 and pH about 6.8. Yes, some fish don't want to spawn. In 2000, Cincy Ranchu had jikins spawn a few hundred fry and they were spread among at least 5 experienced breeders, probably many more. I never heard of a single fish from the spawn ever laying eggs. A few people used males for outcross experiments. I expect Jikins to have inbreeding issues, but in other varieties, inbreeding gets blamed when we don't know what else to blame. Hatch temperatures affect gender ratios, small amounts of estrogen in a water source can cause infertility in male fish, some believe high ammonia and stress in transport can kill eggs in the females (yes, many spawn well right after transport). Commercial goldfish should have been spawned from hundreds of breeders. Line bred fish are swimming in a much shallower gene pool. I think it is a problem no matter what your water type. Most guesses don't explain differences within the same water supply except that a certain line of fish may have problems and may need an outcross.
Al Foster says "spawn the fish that lay eggs". Good advice. If the fish you like better spawn later, great, but don't lose the line because you didn't collect a spawn. Al also says earthworms are his secret (not now) weapon to get fish to spawn. He used to hire neighborhood kids to collect them and feed only lots of worms to potential breeders for a couple weeks. When they started spawning, they usually spawned several times anywhere from 5 to 14 days apart.
This Fall I had a few fish that weren't fat enough to put outside, so I tried to fatten them up with lots of freeze dried worms, high protein crumble and lots of filtration and clean water. All 3 females spawned at least once. The ranchu spawned 3 times in 19 days. I once saw an article that listed experimental results of fertility of guppies based on food. I don't remember the source or exact numbers, but things like dry food, brine shrimp, and tubifex produced from 7 to 35 fry each batch, while earthworm fed females dropped 75 fry per brood.
I try to avoid comparing fish to people, but we know there is a wide variation in 'compunction' levels and more variables than we can count. Infertility is influenced by genetics. Some lines of fish seem determined to prove the old saying "Celibacy is not hereditary".

Norm

[Virginia ranchu]

Hi Daryl,

I and others have also noticed the "it" phenomenon. I have at least one perfectly healthy ranchu that despite being kept outside in a small pond with several other ranchu, never joins in when the rest of the gang is spawning. Because it has never shown breeding tubercles and never gets chased by the males, I am not even sure what sex it is.

Have you tried letting your breeders cool off outside? If you are concerned about harsh winters, leave them outside until late November, and then bring them inside for spawning. I usually have good luck with this method. Also use multiple males if possible. Sometimes the slow chasers will get a clue if the more active ones are in pursuit. Of course, you will then have to hand spawn if you want to ensure parentage. Last but not least, set your lights on timers and give your fish 17 hours of light a day. I previously posted a link to an article that showed this was the optimum day length for stimulating spawing.

Best of luck,

Rob

[Veil Gal]

In the past, I have had success with using a "flow-through" barrier-a partition that divided the males from the female in the same tank. I knew when it was time to put in mops and let the males mingle with the females WHEN the males were going crazy, pushing at the barrier.
I currently have a similar set-up with two very choice veiltail females (1 proven) and two choice veil males (1 proven). I have had these four in the same aquarium for several weeks, have been feeding them well, including earthworms. NOTHING. I guess I could take down the barrier and let them swim together. I like the barrier method because I know when everyone is ready, can put in the spawning mops and not miss the egg drop.
Maybe there is a better way? I am a beginner breeder and ALWAYS wanting to learn.
I commiserate with you Daryl; it is disappointing when you do all you can to stimulate a spawn, and get no results....

[Cincy Ranchu]

All of the previous responces are true and have some key data pieces. I can make three suggestions; one is a feeding and prep regime, another is diet, and the other is a thunder storm. One and two we can fix, the third you will have to schedule for outdoors in late June or July;


Start with a large clean tank with a minimum of 25 gallons per fish.
Next, plan for 14 days prior to the full moon and feed the gell food recipe on the blog in the morning and dried earthworm from Aquion ( I think) that have been wetted for a few minutes in the evening.
Only do water changes once a week and the week of the full moon do water changes at 50% for three days in a row.
On the night before the full moon feed cooked white rice that has garlic powder in it.


The second option is that you have fatty fish and they are not interested.
Once again set up a clean tank and this time underfeed your fish for a month up to the full moon. Twice a day is Ok but about 20% of what you have been feeding.
On the night of the full moon go to cooked rice that also had garlic powder in the boiling water.
If this doesn't work, do it again for another month.



Lastly is the thunder storm, this is the best for fish in which the other methods have not worked.
Put the fish outside in a rubbermaid tub or a small pond and feed daily and perfom a partial overflow or water change weekly.
Time a weather event with rice ( this is trickly because you can over feed and not know it).
The morning after each thunderstorm, inspect the spawing mops early and sometimes you get eggs.


:youtellme::youtellme: Also, the truth is some just mature slowly. The great yellow commons that are now being sold are from a female that I had for two years, gave to Mandley and he had it for two years and at the age of four it bred twice and that was it. All these fish are in-bred, many never breed, people who think they can but two fish and start a line are often dissappointed.

Cheers!:me:GH

[Daryl]

I am not using nearly enough daylight - so that is something I can definately improve upon. There is really no real sunlight in Illinois in the winter.... most believe it is simply a figment of people's imaginations. Occasionally we get a peek at the sun - but rarely, and I am not leaving the lights on anywhere near 17 hours - 13 is more like what I have been doing. I shall start lengthening "daylight".

I am sure I probably have "fatty fish", too, for mine are too well fed, I am sure. I only fast them about once a week - and feed lightly compared to many, but more heavily than I should, I am sure. I am constantly adjusting to less food - and know I need to feed less. They get a good gel food that I make, though.

I am sure that the fish I am struggling with are mature - they are multiple years old.....

When chilled, what is the temperature range that I should strive to bring them to? For what duration? By the time November comes it can be well below freezing - and sometimes below 10F. I usually get them down to about 55F....ish. Lower? And for how long?

I am going to try the larger water, food regiments and light. I expect it is too late this year for proper chilling, but I shall certainly fast and chill and prep next year. I really wanted to get some new Phoenix going this year - but NO luck.

Thank you! :)