To Answer my own questions..

[32Bit_Fish]

I started keeping goldfish almost a year ago... and I always thought goldfish just like any other fish (tropical or salt water fish). They can fat and big wth a beautiful bright color as long as I feed them varieties of high nutrient food and plenty of good water changes.

But things turn to the other way, the way that is discouraging me to continue in this hobby.

The lionheads started lossing weight, size of wen started shrinking and the color of the fish started fading as days go by. All these negative things are happening to my fish while I do massive w/c 2-3 times a week, feed them multiple times a day with varieties of dry and frozen food (talking about the SBD, it is breaking my heart while talk about it).

I have been kept asking myself with these questions. What would I done wrong? Why all my fish were fat and beautiful at the beginnig and things are started changing to the dark side. It seems it is impossible to have a big and fat fish while not getting into SBD issue.

But I think I know why after read the post in other forum. (see link below).

All these show quality gfs were raised and kept in a pond.

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes.
Here are the advantages of keeping GFs in a outdoor pond.

1) Green water in an outdoor pond
2) Huge swimming space (GF gets proper exercise everyday, hence eliminates of SBD issue)

My conclusion would be there is no way I can raise show quality GF in a fish tank.

For me, I'm not going to buy those expensive show quality GF as long as knowing I can only keep them in my 40G fish tank.

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352261&page=14

[small_ranchu]

I have seem a lot of people succefully keep show fish in aquarium. I guess it is not neccessary to put fish outdoor, IMO.

All we are looking for is an equalibrium here. and the equalibrium point might be different for every setting. my 2 cents. :)

[bekko]

If grooming goldfish was easy it would not be as much fun.

-steve

[cowiche ponder]

Sorry you are having problems. Can you tell more about your set up? Size of tank, how many fish, what filtration? Possibly someone could offer help so you can enjoy them in a tank. I sure love having mine in a tank to watch

[32Bit_Fish]

If grooming goldfish was easy it would not be as much fun.

-steve

Well, it would be an eye sore looking at a tank of skinny/big eye gold fish floating around.

[bekko]

Red flags go up when you say "big eye".

It is possible that the fish were already at, or past, their prime when you got them. Some goldfish can be three inches when six months old and continue to grow and improve for another five years. Other goldfish can be three inches when they are five years old and are starting to slip into caducity.

Grooming is really only half of the equation because you also have to start with a fish which has future potential. Fish age is certainly a part of this. Unfortunately, goldfish do not come with a date stamp unless you are buying directly from the breeder. But, just as we can get a sense of the age of a person just by looking, the trained eye can get a sense of the age of a goldfish just by looking.

Some people prefer to buy goldfish which are already "made". It is instant gratification. You know the fish can be beautiful because the beauty is there right now. But, these fish are like cut flowers and have a limited shelf life. Other people like to buy gangly young fish to watch them grow and blossom. It is time consuming and more risky because there is no guarantee of the beauty which lies within. But, it may also be more rewarding.

-steve

[32Bit_Fish]

Red flags go up when you say "big eye".

It is possible that the fish were already at, or past, their prime when you got them. Some goldfish can be three inches when six months old and continue to grow and improve for another five years. Other goldfish can be three inches when they are five years old and are starting to slip into caducity.

Grooming is really only half of the equation because you also have to start with a fish which has future potential. Fish age is certainly a part of this. Unfortunately, goldfish do not come with a date stamp unless you are buying directly from the breeder. But, just as we can get a sense of the age of a person just by looking, the trained eye can get a sense of the age of a goldfish just by looking.

Some people prefer to buy goldfish which are already "made". It is instant gratification. You know the fish can be beautiful because the beauty is there right now. But, these fish are like cut flowers and have a limited shelf life. Other people like to buy gangly young fish to watch them grow and blossom. It is time consuming and more risky because there is no guarantee of the beauty which lies within. But, it may also be more rewarding.

-steve

This is a possibility. But all the juv GFs are in low quality in my LFS. Therefore, I never buy them.

[bekko]

Yes, that is a problem with the commodity goldfish in pet stores. The Asian producers sell off the low-grade fish when they are young to make room, but grow the better fish to a larger size so they can get top dollar.

It is possible to buy high-quality juveniles directly from a breeder if you look around. Be prepared to pay way more than a low-grade, but similar size, fish in a pet store. Still, the cost will be somewhat less than a high-quality fish grown to its peak beauty.

-steve (trying hard not to sound like a advertisement)

[bigbettadan]

Let Steve said, you best bet is buying from breeders here on list.......

Dan

[32Bit_Fish]

I've ordered some high quality adult lionheads online. But the fish started deteriorating slowly even with lots w/c. So I step up with amount of food and feeding times. Then fish started to float.

The expensive shipping cost is the main reasons that holding me back from ordering fish online.

I live in NYC and let me know if anyone knows any good GF breeder in the area. I wouldn't hesitate to pay them a visit. :worship:

[suphi]

You can definitely keep good-quality goldfish in tanks, granted that they tend to do better in ponds.

You have to, however, know how to pick the right fish and never overcrowd or overfeed...unless, you can afford to change water 2-3 times a day like Paul here. When goldfish start to deteriorate you should start thinking why? (water quality or infections--that's pretty much all you have to worry about).

I do not take fish that is not healthy. I do not buy fish with swimming issues, no matter how good they look. I buy fish with long body because they usually are strong swimmers (talking about ranchu here). I also try to avoid buying fish with excessive wen because they tend to swim head down.

Since you're in NY, I'd suggest visiting either Kimmy Koi in Feeding Hills, MA or Paul's place in PA (xxxxxxxxxxxx). You can handpick the fish you want without paying $$ for shipping. It might be a few hours drive but should be worth it.

[32Bit_Fish]

You can definitely keep good-quality goldfish in tanks, granted that they tend to do better in ponds.



any proof back this statement?

Fish tanks: confined space, average 10-20g per fish. no green water, no nature sun light, no green algaes to eat

Pond: huge space, gpf isn't a rule here, lots green water and green algae, nature sun light everyday.

:)

[small_ranchu]

Hi,
It's good you bring out this issue. I have investigated the doubt for some time and here is what I found. I 100% agree that Pond is the best for goldfish. On the other hand, we still can manage to grow fish in the tank though.

Here is one good example for keeping fish in tank by Mr. Lim
http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276

I bought 3 fish two month ago, put them in 29 g tank, feed them heavily (8 times a day with small amount (1min)) and do 70% water change every day. These are 3 months old fish though.

The fish grow from 3" to 3.75" within two months. Now I believe that we have to look for equalibrium. 10 g per fish rule/ 10x filteration rule is a guide line which is closed to equalibrium but we can find a better one for our own system. Here is my BASIC equation and correct me if I am wrong
space + water change = amount of feeding (best is to feed small amount)

Above equation doesn't include the following.
1. Initial selection of new fish
2. Gene
3. assume the person know best water change method
4. steady temperature
5. Quality of food
6. Quality of water
7. different feeding method in different age(under investigation)

Hope we can have a good result out of them. :)

[32Bit_Fish]

Hi,
It's good you bring out this issue. I have investigated the doubt for some time and here is what I found. I 100% agree that Pond is the best for goldfish.

Fred,

Let's put some money together get us a pond in our neighborhood. :)

[small_ranchu]

Getting a pond in NYC :-O

You mush be rich. lol :money:

[32Bit_Fish]

Fred,

Are you overstocking any of your GF tanks?

How many GFs do you have in your 90G?

I dont think overstocking is an issue as long as you keep up the w/c.

I have 6 GFs in my 40G. >:)

[small_ranchu]

I am not overstocking my tank except my experiment tank. I am still going to try my equation. :) try it out.

[32Bit_Fish]

I am not overstocking my tank except my experiment tank. I am still going to try my equation. :) try it out.


Would you mind share your ways/methods of seeking the equalibrium?

Demand and Supply in GF hobby. interesting.

[small_ranchu]

space + water change = amount of feeding (best is to feed small amount)

Above equation doesn't include the following.
1. Initial selection of new fish
2. Gene
3. assume the person know best water change method
4. steady temperature
5. Quality of food
6. Quality of water
7. different feeding method in different age(under investigation)

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2873&postcount=13

[32Bit_Fish]

space + water change = amount of feeding (best is to feed small amount)

Above equation doesn't include the following.
1. Initial selection of new fish
2. Gene
3. assume the person know best water change method
4. steady temperature
5. Quality of food
6. Quality of water
7. different feeding method in different age(under investigation)

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2873&postcount=13

Fred,

I need to get a 90g, can u help me carry? :angel:

Or you can adopt some of my fish, so I dont need to get a bigger tank since I live in a shoe box. :-S

[small_ranchu]

Helping you to carry 90g is not a problem. Otherwise I send you PM for the name of person that can adopt fish from you.