Identifying a koi/goldfish hybrid

[flaringshutter]

Hello all! I have a very unusual situation and I wanted to consult with some of you, who have more experience with goldfish and koi than I do.

You may have seen the black comet goldfish in the last goldfishconnection.com auction. I won that fish and it arrived from Ken on Wednesday in great shape. It's healthy and feeding well, but I noticed some strange things...

The body shape is very different than that of my other comets. The fins are rounded at the ends, the mouth is low-set and the head is triangular, the caudal peduncle is thick and muscular... like a koi. My first thought was that perhaps it could have been produced by crossing a standard comet or funa with an old-school black moor like David posted on goldfishgarage.blogspot.com awhile back - the body shape is somewhat similar and that would explain the rich black color.
I took some photographs of the fish and while reviewing them, noticed that my "black comet" has two tiny barbels at the corners of his mouth. So I did a lateral line scale count and counted 33, too many for a goldfish but not enough for a koi. This fish has a very subtle hump between the head and dorsal fin, a classic characteristic of many hybrids. Black koi/goldfish hybrids have popped up a few times on other forums...
I'm convinced that my fish is a hybrid. I posted the photos to my flickr account (http://flickr.com/photos/33260734@N02/) and you can have a look for yourself. Here's one:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3300/3275379548_afddbff97e.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/33260734@N02/3275379548/)

I'm sure Ken wouldn't dupe his buyers by selling them a hybrid as a goldfish. I think his wholesaler may not have been completely honest with him. I sent him an email and as of now, have not received a reply... what do you all think?

[flaringshutter]

I've also been able to do a dorsal fin ray count, which is 20 - again, too many for a goldfish and just within the koi range.

[Fishdork]

Most of what I've read about hybrids says they usually have 2 barbels (only 1 pr.). The belly line of that fish leans toward koi. Most people claim hybrids are sterile because koi and goldfish have a different number of chromosomes. Merlin Cunliffe, a retired commercial goldfish farmer in Australia insists they have had a line of hybrid mirror scale fish that resemble large goldfish and are fertile. Colors on hybrids often range from a stunning mud olive to black.
Norm

[flaringshutter]

That's what my fish shows - one pair of very small barbels. I figured he was sterile. All the research I've done shows that hybrids are sterile since it's an inter-generic hybrid. That's disappointing, since I wanted to breed this fish...

[Ichthius]

Great fish Iris!

The bummer is a black commet sounds to good to be true and it might just be at this point.

You might let them know you have a hyprid not a true goldfish.

My sources say 32 to 38 lateral scales for a carp.

[flaringshutter]

That's what I was afraid of... still no answer from Ken. I may call him directly.

Thanks for the info about lateral scales. That's even stronger evidence for a hybrid then... bother. Paid a pretty penny for a lovely fish that can't breed!

[Virginia ranchu]

Hi,

I found this picture of a goldfish-koi hybrid on the internet, and it looks pretty similar to your fish.

http://www.tnfish.org/PhotoGalleryFish_TWRA/FishPhotoGallery_TWRA/images/HybridCommonCarpGoldfishMeltonHillNegus_jpg.jpg

Cheers,

Rob

[flaringshutter]

I saw that photo earlier, but thanks for posting it! It does look very similar to my fish, and I've found a few other photos of hybrids that look quite similar as well. I'm disappointed, but he is a very nice looking fish nonetheless. I'm just worried about his adult size now... he's going to be a monster!
Still no word from Ken, and I see the new auction isn't up yet. He said he was going to have more black comets in the auction... I wonder if that has anything to do with the delay? Hm...

[bekko]

Those black comets started coming out of China about a year ago. I am so glad now that I did not bite. Being sterile, they would never have become broodstock.

-steve

[flaringshutter]

Precisely, Steve. It's very disappointing. After watching this fish over the past week, it's clear that it is a hybrid. I wish I had video to post for you all - swims like a koi, eats like a koi, schools like a koi, fin shape says koi - which is really too bad. I was hoping for a good investment for breeding down the line when we have a house with a pond.

[mikeno]

Does anyone know how I can find Merlin Gunliffe. I’m very curious about these fertile koi-goldfish hybrids. At the Wikipedia goldfish site there was an article that mentioned linear scaled and even leather scaled goldfish (hybrids?) and I wonder if they still exists and how they where made.

[mikeno]

Thanks Norm, I will try the address.

[flaringshutter]

Mikeno, that's the thing - they are infertile. Since they are a cross between genus, not just species, the hybrids are sterile. I have also found dozens of research articles referencing a high rate of tumors in the reproductive organs.

[mikeno]

Yes, crosses between genuses are sterile.

Genetics also says that the leather scaled carps must have the gene setup ssNn. ss being recessive gives me a f2, 3 or 4 generation. It’s the leather scaled "goldfish" that’s bothers me.

If there is one fertile hybrid in a million, would anyone recognise a backcross to either species? If you were a linear scaled fish it must be much easier to get famous.

[bekko]

Carassius and Cyprinus have different numbers of chromosomes. I don't think there is even a chance of one in a million.

-steve

[mikeno]

http://mirrorscalegoldfish.blogspot.com/
Telescopic eye linear scale goldfish and leather goldfish... telescopic and leather being recessive, this look like fertile hybrids to me.
Chromosome number ~100? Lets say one in ten million...

[bekko]

In his blog, the guy says the linear scale are not hybrids.

-steve

[demdamdemekins]

Has Ken gotten back in touch with you about this yet? Doesn't seem like him to leave this sort of thing hanging at all...

[flaringshutter]

He still hasn't gotten back to me. He did drop me an email a couple weeks afterward and let me know his father has been ill and in the hospital, so he would try to call me within the next week. I haven't received a call from him yet but am emailing him again tonight. I noticed that no more "black comets" have shown up in the last two gf connection auctions, though. If I hear from him I'll update...

[fish don't sweat]

Mikeno, that's the thing - they are infertile. Since they are a cross between genus, not just species, the hybrids are sterile. I have also found dozens of research articles referencing a high rate of tumors in the reproductive organs.

I can't speak for fish, but in birds of prey male hybrids between genus are definately fertile. I would not give up on this fish until it is proven unfertile.

[Sonny]

I have a similar fish that I am wondering about. Last week I found it at a local fish store. The guy said it was brought in by someone with a pond for trade and was told it was a comet. It's about 13" from tip to tip. I don't see any sign of barbels. What do you think?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/jclaffy/Pond%20and%20Fish/BlackCometinstore.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/jclaffy/Pond%20and%20Fish/BlackCometathome1.jpg

[Sabine]

Looks like it might have interesting scales. Do you have another shot of his side view that shows the scales a little better?
Seems to be an impressive monster, maybe a metallic offspring from shubunkins :youtellme:. Do you keep him in a pond?

[Sonny]

Looks like it might have interesting scales. Do you have another shot of his side view that shows the scales a little better?
Seems to be an impressive monster, maybe a metallic offspring from shubunkins :youtellme:. Do you keep him in a pond?

Yes, he lives in a pond with some other comets and wakins. Unfortunately, that's probably the best side view picture I have but the others can be seen here: Black Comet Pictures (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v510/jclaffy/Pond%20and%20Fish/Black%20Comet/).

[fish don't sweat]

Your link asks for a password. I think you need to paste the html code.

A hybrid can resembe either parent or any percentage of either parent.

[Sonny]

Your link asks for a password. I think you need to paste the html code.

A hybrid can resembe either parent or any percentage of either parent.

Oops, sorry bout that. Here are the pics:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/jclaffy/Pond%20and%20Fish/Black%20Comet/IMG00025-20090430-1153.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/jclaffy/Pond%20and%20Fish/Black%20Comet/IMG00024-20090430-1153.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/jclaffy/Pond%20and%20Fish/Black%20Comet/IMG00023-20090430-1153.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/jclaffy/Pond%20and%20Fish/Black%20Comet/IMG00022-20090430-1152.jpg

[fish don't sweat]

That's a marvelous looking fish.

This fish hybrid thing has got me thinking. I wonder what extreems would be possible, sky's the limit ? :youtellme:

[Ichthius]

If you can get a picture clear enough to count the scales on the lateral line we might be able to figure something out from that.

[afnaveils]

I saw a similar fish in a petshop today. It was about 8 inches long and no barbels. Do all goldfish/koi hydrids grow barbels? Why would that be if they have half the genes of a goldfish? Can it be that the barbels genes do not show with the black color? Well, questions from a guy who knows nothing about kois and genetics, lol.

[flaringshutter]

Hybrids do not all grow barbels. The dorsal fin shape and the body shape of the fish definitely says hybrid to me, absolutely. He's a gorgeous hybrid, though! :)
I did a short little write-up on identifying hybrids for another forum if you want to know more about them:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188053

[fish don't sweat]

Well, questions from a guy who knows nothing about kois and genetics, lol.

I know practically nothing about genetics , but I do know that if you breed two species that have the same recessive gene for colour ( white for example ) then the offspring will always be the same colour . Two whites makes whites even if all the grand parents were black.

[Sonny]

Hybrids do not all grow barbels. The dorsal fin shape and the body shape of the fish definitely says hybrid to me, absolutely. He's a gorgeous hybrid, though! :)
I did a short little write-up on identifying hybrids for another forum if you want to know more about them:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188053

Your hybrid post on aquariacentral and it is definitely good info, thanks!

I count ~20 dorsal rays on my fish. If I can I'll get a lateral scale count and let you know.

[Ichthius]

I think the one thing to keep in mind is with genetics and particularlly goldfish or koi genetics which are essentially tetraploid making their genetics 2x or 4x more complicated there are always an exception to the rule.

Two whites only make a white if their gene for white is at the exact same location (loci).

A great example I know of first hand is in bristle nosed plecos. There are a couple different albino strains and when they are crossed you get brown babies. They are likely different species and their albino gene is in a different location so when they are crossed the only have one copy of the recessive gene at each location thus brown babies.

[fish don't sweat]

I think the one thing to keep in mind is with genetics and particularlly goldfish or koi genetics which are essentially tetraploid making their genetics 2x or 4x more complicated there are always an exception to the rule.

Two whites only make a white if their gene for white is at the exact same location (loci).

A great example I know of first hand is in bristle nosed plecos. There are a couple different albino strains and when they are crossed you get brown babies. They are likely different species and their albino gene is in a different location so when they are crossed the only have one copy of the recessive gene at each location thus brown babies.


You have lost me with that one. I would have thought that if a gene were in a fish but in a different location them we must be talking about two different fish.

[Ichthius]

Two of a kind do not always make 3 of a kind when the reproduce. If you breed a red capped lionhead to a red capped lionhead you don't get a bunch of red capped lionheads. You get a whole mix of traits.

The bristle noses were likely two very similar species but in their slight differences one of which was the exact location of the albino gene.

Even with in a species you can have similar traits that come from different loci.

We should move this to a new thread. We've hijacked this one.

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[fish don't sweat]

We should move this to a new thread. We've hijacked this one.

<}}}><


i agree. In the meantime please tell me how to get my PH lower, I don't have a clue.