Ulcer

[suphi]

Anybody here with experiences treating open ulcers? One of my fish develop a small sore 3 weeks ago. It is not healing and might be getting a bit bigger. The fish is acting normally but I'm very concerned because I lost fish due to ulcers like this in the past.

My main concern is aeromonas/pseudomonas infection which is very hard to treat. I've done peroxide dab a few times over the past few weeks (diluted to 0.1% to avoid making it worse). I've tried bacitracin ointment and liquid betadine without much success. Now I've been applying kanamycin powder directly to the wound daily for the past few days (doesn't stick too well).

Vet isn't an option. I have a very busy practice and have no time, although I realize that's probably the best choice...but it's also not cost-effective to me.

I'm looking at Kusuri ulcer kit (http://www.lagunakoi.com/subcat176.html) and might give that a try.

Will post the picture of the fish later.

Suphi

[suphi]

http://www.goldfishkeepers.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=104

[Bucks Koi]

WOW!

You don't need to buy a kit you just need a little time a patience.
This fish needs it's own tank and a heater and NO FOOD till the problem is fixed.
If it was my fish again (if it was my fish) I would also raise the temp. to 75 or 78 degrees.
And put some Potassium Permanganate on the ulser with a Qtip
I would dilute the Potassium Permanganate to the consistency of water.
Treat only once and give it time in it's own tank.
I have treated many koi and goldfish this way but I have also injected koi and goldfish with Azactam also only one shot is needed with this med.

Patrick

[suphi]

Hi thanks for the reply. My heater is set at 80F. How do you get a hold of Azactam, it's a prescription antibiotic right? I have not tried potassium permanganate dab, that's something I could easily do also.

[Bucks Koi]

Yes
It's a prescription antibiotic and try not to get the Potassium Permanganate in the gills, after you put it in the ulser just put the fish back in the tank.
And rember NO FOOD.

[Bucks Koi]

Rember
Only treat once the ulser may look like it's still infected but you have to give it time to heal.
Sorry to repeat, but by not feeding now the fish can put it's energy to heal
and no energy to digest.
It can go a long time with out food if it's in good health and fat now.
By treating it to often it will never heal or regrow new tissue.
Patrick

[bekko]

I agree with Patrick. Only difference is I make a little potassium permanganate paste and dab it on. The paste goes where you want it to, albeit, most of it seems to dissolve away as soon as the fish hits the water again. It's simple, but remarkably effective.

-steve

[Bucks Koi]

Potassium Permanganate paste is Ok but when used on scale's can be a little to strong, It will burn good scales and remove the slime coat.
When this happens the scale's are useless and rot and then fall out.
That is why I always thin it out, you will get the same effect if you cover the whole ulser.
That's just my opinion
Patrick

[Bucks Koi]

Suphi
One other thing, I realy like that ranchu.
I hope that you can repair it.
Sincerely
Patrick

[Cincy Ranchu]

I typically treat this type of Aeromonas infection with 86F water and Oxylinic Acid and water changes. You usually see dramatic changes in three days. If you want a source for Oxilinic acid send me a private email and I will get you to the source..

GH

[suphi]

Gary, private message sent. Thanks.

[suphi]

One major issue I had with this type of problem in the past is that the ulcer would keep hemorrhaging instead of drying up and become slowly larger with time (months), eventually the fish died.

Gary, how did you administer oxolinic acid, IM or bath? dosing? I have access to human-equivalent antibiotic (cipro, avelox, etc.) as long as it's not the injectable type.

So here's the latest update. The fish is in hospital tank, temp at 82F, will raise to 86 by tomorrow night. I'm putting Kanamycin in the water since that's the only antibiotic I have on-hand that can/may get aeromonas/pseudomonas.

[cowiche ponder]

One major issue I had with this type of problem in the past is that the ulcer would keep hemorrhaging instead of drying up and become slowly larger with time (months), eventually the fish died.

Gary, how did you administer oxolinic acid, IM or bath? dosing? I have access to human-equivalent antibiotic (cipro, avelox, etc.) as long as it's not the injectable type.

So here's the latest update. The fish is in hospital tank, temp at 82F, will raise to 86 by tomorrow night. I'm putting Kanamycin in the water since that's the only antibiotic I have on-hand that can/may get aeromonas/pseudomonas.
Oxolinic acid is great stuff to treat ulcers with. I have the powder form and use this for calculating how much http://cnykoi.com/calculators/calcoxacid.asp Dip for 30 mins with O2 supplemented. Be sure and "rinse" the fish before returning to it's tank as the OC will do a number on the filtration. I think it's a dip once a day for 4 days? I will have to check on that and try and get back here on that.

I've had some pretty nasty looking ulcers that responded to the OC beautifully.

[suphi]

Thanks for all the comments. They were very helpful.

Mary, I when I read your post I imagined turning on my kitchen faucet and literally rinse my fish right after the dip...lol. I could actually do this since our well water has no chlorine/choloramine in it.

Anyway, the fish (his name is Cobalt) is in my 10G hospital tank with daily WC so I don't have to worry about biofiltration for now.

[suphi]

So...I also upped the temp in my main tank to 80 just for the heck of it last night. Today it was a spawnfest with egg-laden bottom. I think one of Paul's ranchu was the culprit, quite fertile at a young age geez.

I'm still waiting for PP and oxolinic acid. My wife threw away my old PP bottle so I got nothing other than Kanamycin at home right now. The plan is to apply PP to the ulcer, followed by 30-min bath in oxol (quite expensive).

I think we can probably substitute that with Cipro which is in the same class and much more affordable (and covered by our health insurance, lol, you can't beat $4 Walmart plan for 30-day supply).

[Bucks Koi]

Suphi
I think a pp treatment and a bath treatment may be a little to much stress
on your fish.
Please be careful.
Patrick

[suphi]

Ok, Pat, I might not do them on the same day. I'm just going to dab PP on the wound to disinfect it, not bath.

[Cincy Ranchu]

I always just treat the tank and change 50% of the water everyday inbetween treatments, I really don't like dips, way too much stress and slime removal. Add the dose on the label to a small amount of water and put it in the tank. Change water in 24hours and repeat.:exact::exact::exact:

[suphi]

Hmm, bath would seem to be more economical also as it would require lower dose of the medication. I still have 2 days to decide what to do. Unfortunately (or fortunately), I only have one fish with ulcer right now else I could run a comparison test to see which method (bath vs dip) would be more effective.

As far as I know, fluoroquinolones (oxolinic) can be very toxic to the liver and kidney and can cause multiple organ damages if not used properly. Fluoroquinolone class is usually a prescription drug due to above, I'm not sure why they let oxolinic acid go over the counter like this...Well, I needed it anyway.

[bekko]

substitute that with Cipro

Suphi, I understand that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but not a bad idea either. How would you go about using Cipro to treat? Dissolve it in the water? What dosage?

Thanks,
-steve

[suphi]

Steve, exact dosing might be a problem since we don't know what dosage will be the sweet spot for goldfish of a certain size. But from what I've read about what people in Asia did with other antibiotics such as amox or erythromycin, they use regular human dose in 10 Gal water for a 24hr bath. So dosing for cipro would be 250-500 mg depending on the strength you desire (tablet will need to be crushed then dissolved in the water).

I'm not gonna try cipro this time since I already bought oxo, but if i had several fish with this problem then I'd think hard about it. $4 for 30 pills (30 treatments) is very affordable no matter how you look at it.:youtellme:

[bekko]

Suphi, I have some Cipro lying around which is why I asked. But after thinking about it, I'm not so sure it is a good idea to be using human antiobiotics indescriminantly because that could encourage antibiotic resistance.

How does the ulcer look today?

-steve

[suphi]

Steve, for vendors like yourself it could pose a problem with resistant bacteria strains, but for amateur like myself where the fish is contained and will likely live and die in the same tank I do not see a problem with using human antibiotics.

The ulcer looks a tad better today (less angry) but it's difficult to gauge by just eyeballing. I don't want to jinx myself just yet so I will say there's no significant difference. Kana bath day #2, awaiting Oxolinic acid.

I posted a crappy video clip below, bad lighting so it's hard to see but the fish is very active at high temperature as you can see.

http://gallery.me.com/thanthipm#100225

[suphi]

Oxolinic acid came in today. I'm following the instructions for a 24-hr bath (2.4 mg per 25 gal). Let's see if this will work!

[mikroll]

Hi Suphi,
take a look at this used to treat infections , ulcers etc of eyes. Colbiocin composed of : cloramfenicolo, colistimetato of soda and rolitetraciclina ( tetraciclina)
in liquid and also in cream. pictured here is the descriptive paper of the drug:
http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/calico%20oranda/?action=view&current=DSCN9975.jpg

[cowiche ponder]

Oxolinic acid came in today. I'm following the instructions for a 24-hr bath (2.4 mg per 25 gal). Let's see if this will work!

haven't heard of it being used in a 24 hr bath..will be interesting to see results.

I had excellent results using it as a dip. One small koi had an ulcer the size of a 50cent piece..a large part of his side..healed up very nicely using OC dips

[thomasn]

haven't heard of it being used in a 24 hr bath..will be interesting to see results.

I had excellent results using it as a dip. One small koi had an ulcer the size of a 50cent piece..a large part of his side..healed up very nicely using OC dips

I have some. the instructions on the package have a dosage for 24 hr bath.

[suphi]

Mary, I'm afraid fancy goldfish are more fragile than koi, so I'm gonna try 24 hr bath first, just to be on the safe side. The bottles that I bought have specific instructions on the side. Finished day#1 bath today, so far so good.

[suphi]

Mikroll, I can't read Italian lol. Anyway it looks like a combination of chloramphenicol and tetracycline. Chloramphenicol, however, is no longer available in the US due to risk of aplastic anemia. I'm sure it's effective as topical treatment but I'm not sure if I can obtain it here. Drugs are typically more tightly regulated in the US compared to Europe.

I'm hoping that Oxo will do the job, will keep doing it for another 4 days.

[suphi]

Good news! Just picked up Cobalt and inspected him, the ulcer is definitely healing. The redness is fading replaced by eschar tissue around the periphery. I'm quite impressed with Oxolinic acid now (day#2), I haven't seen this kind of dramatic response with any other antibiotics that I've tried.

[Jed]

Suphi,

That's wonderful news! I've been following this topic, interesting. Is it possible to take a picture of the healing process? I would love to see it.

[suphi]

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=130

Here you go. You can see that the redness has faded and there is an evidence of scar tissue formation (the white stuff covering the area). This is a healing ulcer where the wound will become less and less exposed to the external environment due to formation of scar tissue. Very good prognosis now.:yess:

[Jed]

:yess: It is healing and it's looking good. I'm so happy because I really love that ranchu. I have also treated stuff like this, but I used injectables. I'm very happy to learn that this can be treated without using them.

[Daryl]

I, too, am very interested. I have been ill - and not here for a while - but during my illness, one of my favorite fish has developed an ulcer. This fish was injured when younger - by a thumb cutting through his side when he was mishandled. (I got him because he was so injured) It healed well - and rather quickly that year, with the simple use of Maracyn Plus - a supposedly encapsulated antibiotic that is in "micro-beads" that "attach to the wound's surface" ...."speeding healing". It was the best I could do at the time - and it worked.

This time, the ulcer has begun in the exact same shape and space as the old wound - and has been getting bigger and bigger. It is now over 1/2 inch in diameter....

I have found that PP paste, being an oxidizer, is GREAT at original sterilization, but should not be repeated for it can kill new tissue - and retard healing. Once sterilized, the wound needs to be kept clean and allowed time to heal. A PP bath of 4 hours - I think it is 400ppm pp.....(?) does a good job but is not highly recommended for smaller fish. The one I am treating is a good 9 incher.

I have been using the Maracyn Plus this time around - just since I have been home from the hospital - and have been having a modicum of success. The fish has a long way to go, though. At least the ulcer has stopped growing.....

I am happy to read of the Oxolinic acid treatment - and intend to try it! Thank you. :)

[suphi]

Now if I can keep my 2 yr old from stuffing my hospital tank with her toys for a few more days the fish should be alright :) And big thanks to Gary who first suggested this antibiotic and source.

[bekko]

Whew! I would have guessed that they would be fried and ready to eat after four hours in 400 ppm potassium permanganate. 4 ppm would be really high.

-steve

[Daryl]

Yeah .... well, lost the decimal point. I really fuzzed out on that one!!!! :me:

:backingout:

Yum - purple (or brown) PP fried fish!

[bekko]

Sort of like ceviche, perhaps.

-steve

[suphi]

Here are the latest pics, and hopefully the last in this series as the ulcer appeared to be regressing well now.

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=134


http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=135

[Jed]

The ulcer has really cleared up, Suphi! Again, I'm so happy because I just love this ranchu. The colors are amazing to me. Good job!

[cowiche ponder]

I always just treat the tank and change 50% of the water everyday inbetween treatments, I really don't like dips, way too much stress and slime removal. Add the dose on the label to a small amount of water and put it in the tank. Change water in 24hours and repeat.:exact::exact::exact:

Great idea for goldies, but it would never work in my 300 gallon hosptial/qt for the koi. That was my experience and why I used the dip, also for multiple fish. Would be a bit spendy at 300 gallons at a time

edit: Could it be used in a hospital tank for 24 hours..move fish to temp matched untreated tank and then moved back?

[cowiche ponder]

The ulcer has really cleared up, Suphi! Again, I'm so happy because I just love this ranchu. The colors are amazing to me. Good job!

is it just me or can everyone else see the pictures??/

[thomasn]

not just you, i cant see pictures either

[suphi]

Hint: you have to sign in, in order to see the photos because I uploaded them to this site not to an external site like flickr.

[cowiche ponder]

I AM logged in or I wouldn't be able to post!

[small_ranchu]

What browser are you using?

[cowiche ponder]

firefox. It wants a longer message..so blabber blabber..that should make it happy :yess: