Calico Oranda

[mikroll]

Calico oranda, blue/white body, fine well striped tails,lush head growth red, yellow. That goal is proving more elusive than I have ever imagined. most are turning out with orange bodys or other but very few with what I seek. this year will try again this time begining with an f1 oranda( but is orange body) and also will use a red cap back to oranda female. Maybe should import a few more new breed stock to enrich? Here are pictures of what is turning out to be much harder to reproduce.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/calico%20oranda/oranda%20adults/OrandaCalicowithRedCap.jpg


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/calico%20oranda/oranda%20adults/DSCN6721.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/calico%20oranda/oranda%20adults/IMG_3540.jpg

[Fishdork]

Yes, that top photo looks like what we want. Was the photo taken in Japan? Do you know how long ago?

Norm

[Virginia ranchu]

Michael,

Those are beautiful fish. Thanks for pointing out the importance of red head growth. I hadn't considered this before, but it is very striking.

Cheers,

Rob

[Cincy Ranchu]

The first picture is hard to believe, it is very nice. Norm and Rob should be able to figure this out?:youtellme:

[bekko]

I guess azumanishiki are expensive for a good reason. Those are nice ones.

-steve

[mikroll]

Yes, that top photo looks like what we want. Was the photo taken in Japan?

Norm
one of my favorites too. easy color pattern to breed in koi but difficult for me to breed in goldfish. :youtellme:

The top photos are China fish, from Suzhou. the two cream heads are also from China, Hong Kong.
they are called, " She too " and do not speak any japanese :)

[Fishdork]

Thanks Michael,
I think I misunderstood you originally. I have photos of Azumanishiki like that because that's what I want to reproduce, but the fish I breed don't look very similar. I didn't realize those were the fish you bred. Nobody in the U.S. seems to remember seeing any Azumas of that quality in the last 20 years. When they did have them decades ago, everyone had trouble reproducing the pattern also. Crossing to white red caps seems to make all the other colors fade (decoloring or 'demelanization' gene). Not crossing to red caps causes the hoods to fade. I think they usually had the colors fade out within 2 generations and gave up. Please let me know if you see any unusually colored fish in the spawnings. I would expect 1/4 pinky matts, 1/4 brown metallics, and the rest a mixed group of calico. Any solid blue fish would be important to know about. Anything else strange like brown calicoes I would like to know.
I have a couple lines of fish that have the 'blue mutation' gene from blue metallics mixed into calico fish. The calicoes that are pure for blue mutation (Blue Jay) don't have red, just a little brownish orange. The calicoes with blue mutation recessive don't seem to have any less chance of being mostly orange with white bellies and black spots. Blue metallic Orandas have the orange color suppessed, even in their hoods. There's a slight chance a blue jay oranda could have the red hood grow from a different skin layer and be red, but I doubt it. Of the 1200 ranchu spawned in December from calico blue recessive fish, I have one that has a blue body and a yellow head. Too young and too little light indoors to tell if it will become dark orange or red.

Norm

[Guenther]

Any solid blue fish would be important to know about. Anything else strange like brown calicoes I would like to know.


Norm, what do you mean with 'solid blue'?
Do you mean a 'metallic blue' or a 'calico blue' in matt or calico fishes?

[Fishdork]

Guenther,
Either one. Blue metallic are pretty easy to recognize after about a month if you keep the metallics that long. Calico fish with the blue mutation gene (blue Jay) can look a lot like a regular calico that is mostly blue. Blue Jay fish usually have many black spots that aren't very deep black and the orange areas are pale and brownish.

[Virginia ranchu]

Norm,


Here are some pics of my calico oranda and calico ryukin pair, and a few of their 4 week old fry. I have another, larger spawn from this pair that is 2 1/2 wks. old.

Rob

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/Virginia_Ranchu/IMG_0824.jpg

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/Virginia_Ranchu/IMG_0828.jpg

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/Virginia_Ranchu/IMG_0835.jpg

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/Virginia_Ranchu/IMG_0832.jpg

[Guenther]

Guenther,
Either one. Blue metallic are pretty easy to recognize after about a month if you keep the metallics that long. Calico fish with the blue mutation gene (blue Jay) can look a lot like a regular calico that is mostly blue. Blue Jay fish usually have many black spots that aren't very deep black and the orange areas are pale and brownish.

Norm, I asked this question because I was surprised that you crossed a metallic blue with a calico to get blue calico?
The blue effect in metallic fish comes from the melanin near the scales, but the blue effect in calicos comes from the melanin deep under the scales and skin.
So, why did you use a blue metallic?
What is the colour of the blue metallic when the fish is 2 years or older - white, or do they stay blue for life?

[mikroll]

Hi Norm (fishdork),
the top photo was taken in December of 2006 . I too am still trying to just reproduce that kind. Normaly there is always something missing ..no headgrowth or poor tails or color is wrong but am still trying. Now am on the f2 /3 generation. the cream color headgrowths pictured were taken in 2007.
here are some brown bodys( purple?) is that the kind of brown you are using?
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/friends%20pics/cliff/DSC03750.jpg

I have a redcaps spawn now at 50 days and in it there are two who are blue, I nearly threw them out but guenther had advised me to always keep few. So we will see what they develop into. My f2 calicos x female calico spawn is just hatched this week..

[Fishdork]

Wow, where do I start? Rob, I like those fish. I wish we had a good male Oranda to use. Gary's is mostly orange, but maybe from the same bloodline. I like the fact the ryukin has a lot of black pigment. I wish the base color on both of them had less orange. The fry look good with consistent growth rate. They are probably too young to photograph color yet. The calico ranchu I have tend to breed more orange into each new generation much faster than Shubunkin lines I've bred. Michael seems to be overwhelmed by orange on calico fish also. I suggest Michael breed one of his blue fish with cream hood to a calico with a good mix of color. Some people believe spawning a brown metallic to a calico sibling will give fry with more orange than a calico to calico pairing. The only time I can remember spawning a pink matt, it was to a brown metallic. Some of the babies did have a lot of blue and black. The orange they did have was small speckles instead of large areas. One former breeder says matt to calico is the only combination that doesn't produce 'dirty' colors.
Michael, I misled you again. As an example of unusual fish, I was thinking of some calicoes that are brown and gray, a little like a Koromo or Goshiki koi, but I have no reason to expect them in a Azuma spawn. I meant the fish I have are just average calicoes that have as much blue as I could find at a pet shop. Those fish with brown bodies and red hoods are an interesting idea. We are looking for fish that don't decolor, but have red heads, but I wouldn't want to use a fish whose body base color is orange if I was trying to make blue. The breeders years ago had such trouble, they speculated Azumas were a first generation outcross between 2 different types. The question is What? By inbreeding for a couple generations I thought you might see something unusual without realizing it's importance.
I would expect any fish produced by crossing to a normal white red capped oranda to lose all black color pigment within a year (including brown, calico blue, calico black spots, etc.) I've never heard of blue fish from red capped oranda spawnings. Are those fish related to your calico orandas? If they are, that's exactly what we want, red head with a body that holds black pigment. I'll talk more about stable blue in part 2 to Guenther.
Norm

[Fishdork]

Guenther, I was surprised by your questions because you have already spawned most of the answers. Your post titled "Breeding Blue Calico" shows the process, except the photos of the previous generation with a blue metallic are missing. Crossing blue metallic to calico fish produces 1/2 brown metallic (w/blue recessive) and 1/2 calico that are orange and white with some black, just like the ryukin in your photo. Spawning the babies together produces more brown metallics, orange and white calicoes, but also some fish with the pure blue mutation gene. These will be blue metallic or blue jay, depending on a separate gene for calico. Looking through your other photo link, all these fish are there. If the blue and calico fish you started the line with held their black pigment into old age (which is usually the breeding goal for those types), then the next generations should be just as stable. If you started with anything like orange or white metallic or panda, the black pigment should fade from the blue, brown, and black areas to leave you with sakura calicoes and orange metallics. When the depigmenting gene takes effect, it's like printing photos of your fish after your printer runs out of black ink.
If you are happy with the ryukins that are all blue and black, then just keep breeding them to each other or to their blue metallic siblings. If you want big orange or red spots, it's not likely to happen with the fish that have a pure set of blue mutation genes. You are right that the blue metallic pigment is near the surface. The blue jay calico fish have the surface wiped clean of any guanine, but they still have some layers of pigment. The blue color in a normal calico may be in a different skin layer, but it is also produced by a different gene. Most lines of shubunkin with good blue never produce blue metallics. They get their color a different way. I started my lines of blue jay calicoes hoping that the fish with blue mutation recessive would have better color, but usually it doesn't seem to matter. I plan to usually breed one regular calico to one blue jay calico sibling. This way I can select the regular calico for blue color and red pattern and still get some blue fish in every spawn if the calico blue doesn't come through. I realize it's confusing to discuss 2 types of blue calico at the same time. I try to get people to think of genetics as separate pieces. (If we use diploid genetics for 'simplicity' yeah... right) Each pair of genes in the parent gets split and one gets sent to each baby. Think of each gene as a different coin. Flip the coin and only one side turns up. Use a peso for blue mutation, a euro for decoloring, and a dollar coin for calico. A blue metallic fish has a 2 headed peso for blue and a 2 headed dollar for metallic, so passes a piece of each to all its offspring. To get calico fish you need to breed to a fish with tails on at least one side of its dollar. Matts would be 2 tailed coins and calicoes are regular heads one side and tails on the other. Most calicoes have 2 tailed pesos- no blue mutation, so it takes another generation to get blue jay which would have 2 peso heads and a head and a tail dollar. For the 2 people not yet confused, now the euro gene may come in and steal all the black ink away and leave you with white fish after all that work and waiting.
If you want to know how to make regular calicoes blue, I don't know yet, but it is good to have goals.
The photos titled F1 for first generation outcross look similar color to Guenther's ryukin photo. The photos titled F2 show several types, including those with and without blue mutation.

Norm

[Cincy Ranchu]

looks like you have split tails on the fry, pretty nice Rob

[Cincy Ranchu]

looks like you have split tails on the fry, pretty nice Rob

[Guenther]

Norm, first thank you for your complete answer.
I don't want to hijack Michael's thread but will at least answer to this point:

> Your post titled "Breeding Blue Calico" shows the process, except the photos
> of the previous generation with a blue metallic are missing
Here is what I have done:

Parents:
In 2005 I bred with these fish, the photo date is 27 March 2005:
http://www.shubunkin.de/images/270305.jpg
Offspring:
In Febr 2007 I bred, among others, with their offspring, the first photo date is from 05 Nov 2006
http://www.shubunkin.de/upload/bild.asp?id=3804

the photo date of this fish is 07 Dec 2006
http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/071206_big.jpg

It is my understanding that there was no 'blue metallic' in this line.
Maybe I have a problem with the definition of 'blue metallic'. For me, the shown offspring metallic fish is an almost black fish. I selected it to bring back the colour into my line and as 'late demelanizer'.

Back to Michael's goal:
I'm not an expert in genetics, but for me it seems logical that in his red cap blue calico orandas and their offspring is everthing needed to recreate the redcap calico.
I would pick a dark metallic offspring (that will eventually turn all red, 'late demelanizer') of these redcap calico parents and cross it back to parents or siblings.
What do you think?

[Fishdork]

Guenther, I'm a little stumped. The fish on the left in the March 2005 photo could possibly be blue jay. Your blue calico fish have more orange than most I've bred with blue mutation genes. The metallic fish attached is your photo and looks like it could be blue. Your double photo below looks different than most calicoes, almost the color of colored matts. The third photo is a blue jay type with a few orange spots. That fish was bred by Cincy Ranchu. That line started with two fish that looked blue metallic, but all the first generation were all calico (see fourth photo) so apparently one was a colored matt. The fourth photo coloration looks a lot like the second photo. Maybe your line has colored matts or some other type of genetics that are not typical?
I agree that all the genes needed for Azumas should be present. If they crossed different fish together, the genes may be so scrambled up it's had to sort them out. On the other hand, they may just be selected out from a large number of other calicoes. When trying to breed blue calico fish, I think using dark fish is a good idea. Calicoes with heavy black spotting, really dark metallics, or colored matts that show dark pigment are all good choices compared to similar pale fish. This is mostly guessing, partly agreeing with Al Foster's opinion and partly reasoning that the more black ink the parents have, the more they have to share.
Norm

[Guenther]

Norm,

> Your blue calico fish have more orange than most I've bred with blue mutation genes.

Here you can see a video of this fish and some of his blue/red siblings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiAblc0a1S8

> The metallic fish attached is your photo and looks like it could be blue.

In the last spawn I also found these different metallic fish:

http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/young_metallics.jpg

For breeding blue calicos I would prefer the darker (blue?) fish. I showed those fishes as older fishes in the thread 'breeding blue calicos'

> Maybe your line has colored matts or some other type of genetics that are not typical?

:youtellme:

[Virginia ranchu]

If I cross a pinkie matt with a calico, is it true that all pigmented fry would get those genes from the calico parent?

I ask this question because my female calico oranda has good blue color, but many of the fry from a cross with a calico ryukin are heavy on the orange/red. I am wondering if it would be best to use the pinkie matts (rather than the calico fry) to breed back to the calico oranda.

Thanks,

Rob

[sc569]

I have made some conjectures about the gene homologies between goldfish and mice.

There is a ligand-receptor system in mice that causes white spotting that is very analogous to the calico/matt system in goldfish.

The mouse genes are called c-Kit and Steel. They affect the migration of cells from the notochord and contribute pigment cells to the skin, neurons to the intestine and stem cells to the gonads. So, without these genes, there is a failure of cells to migrate into the skin, intestine and gonads. The mice that do not have functional Kit or steel are all white (but with black eyes), tend to get megacolon (lack of good intestinal motility) and are sterile.

This sounds like what the matts turn out to be. I would be interested in hearing whether anyone has bred from a true matt fish. It would certainly be possible for a calico to look very much like a matt. A functional test to see whether the progeny come out all calico when mated to a metallic fish.

Streamson

[Cincy Ranchu]

Hey SC,

My Midnight shubunkins and matt protion of a Bristol cross are matts and some are obvious not sterile. In Bristols I have made the Matt to Metallic cross with success and the Midnights are all mats.

There appears to be something connected to the blue coloring of the dermis in a matt that effects its viability/potency.

THX GH

[sc569]

Gary,

I don't recall the details but you and your coterie probably set up breedings between Midnights and calicos.

Do you know that a Midnight/Calico looks like a matt or Midnight het or something else?

The Midnight might not be an allele of calico but a completely different gene.

Also, if you have progeny from a Midnight/calico crossed to a Midnight, do you ever get pink matts? If you did, then this would suggest that the Midnight is a combination of calico and something else.

Streamson

[Cincy Ranchu]

Gary,

I don't recall the details but you and your coterie probably set up breedings between Midnights and calicos.

Do you know that a Midnight/Calico looks like a matt or Midnight het or something else?

The Midnight might not be an allele of calico but a completely different gene.

Also, if you have progeny from a Midnight/calico crossed to a Midnight, do you ever get pink matts? If you did, then this would suggest that the Midnight is a combination of calico and something else.

Streamson

The outcome is rather odd. I will take a video and post sometime this week, I got some pinkies and may matts with blue deep in the dermis. I also got some really ugly ones.
I can tell you when you cross midnight X midnight it is always 100% midnight, no metallics....

[sc569]

Gary,

I think that Midnights are something else and different from the calico/matt system. I remember seeing some in a pond that Carlos had.

I would think that you would need to have a light colored pond to appreciate them though.

Streamson

[mikroll]

fry are all moving outside to ponds for the Summer. the blue is still elusive, every other color seems to show up though and most are defective in some way or another. The red caps spawned only yellow cap this time too.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/calico%20oranda/F3%20fry/th_DSCN0704.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/calico%20oranda/F3%20fry/?action=view&current=DSCN0704.flv)

[mikroll]

here a few of the biggest babys will join adults in outside pond. the red caps all remain "yellow cap" but the calico x red cap are producing color now if they will only pleae grow up their head wens too.


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/calico%20oranda/F3%20fry/DSCN0931.jpg

[Virginia ranchu]

Hi Michael,

Those babies look very good. My calico oranda X calico fantail fry look similar. My fry have not developed much wen yet either. Perhaps there is still hope. My only female calico oranda is in a pond, and she spawned yesterday, but unfortunately, she was out numbered by some very enthusiastic shubunkins, and they "roughed her up" a bit. I will have to move her now to be sure she will be around for next year's back cross.

Cheers,

Rob

[mikroll]

always in search of the elusive blue but feel am getting closer each year. have about 30 or 40 of these baby to play with and many show some blue.
everyone told me to use a dark fish to get the darker blue. that so far has not worked and now that the red caps white have been introduced the color is looking better. I have saved two pure dark nearly black to use later.

The oranda just spawned again, full moon, in main pond and i missed it while screwing around with the koi ( who did nothing). managed to save a mop full of the eggs though but am not too sure which ones are parents.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/mikroll/calico%20oranda/F3%20fry/RSCN0974.jpg

[Virginia ranchu]

http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu344/Virginia_Ranchu/?action=view&current=IMG_1093.jpg

[orandablue]

I am interested in breeding fish like this. I am in love w super blue fish as well.I guess when you posted that picture of those... well who would'nt want to try n make that!! Anyway I just found my red cap i want to breed! (very exciting) And already have my calico female. Is that the first step?? Calico to red cap? I have male and female blue metallic orandas to work with too. Just wondered if you had any tips. or pics! :)

[mikroll]

Hi orandablue,
those are not azuma, but China,Suzhou.
over here are pics of what poorly produce i have so far.
http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1581
some of the blue is very intense. But is proving rather difficult. Others very expert say to use black metal fish to get results. I tried that and did not like what produced. so 4 years later am back to using , yes , a white fish, the Red caps into different calicos .

The best , strongest blue is out of a Blue veil tail x Red cap. But no head growth yet. Now those are ready and I shall breed them several ways. x red cap and x calico, son of those in pics and others. I hope that I do not loose them before I can get the eggs. I say this because the very finest oranda that I have ever had I lost to parasite and infections ,due to my lack of experience in that area.

Best tips i can give you is that if you really want a blue is to maybe go buy several all ready done. we all have got to start somewhere so why not start at top?.

[johnatoranchu]

Rob, what do you hope to achieve by crossing calico Oranda x calico Ryukin?
John

[sc569]

Just a quick note that will save you some time if you believe this advice.

A classic red cap x calico will yield red caps metallics and red cap nacreous. Almost no blue as the red cap is basically a demelanized fish. There will be no blue or black pigments in any of the progeny after a year or so.

If you do the crosses and raise the progeny, please do report back and let us know what you got.

Calico blue is very elusive. I think it is a matter of selective breeding and sheer luck. Sor of like getting the right patterns in koi. They raise 10,000 fry for that one koi that might become a show fish. Not sure how many are raised to make a grand champion but since there is only one grand champion per year, that is 1 for all of the koi raised in Japan in a year!!!! That number is likely to be in the billions.

[Virginia ranchu]

John,

You might recall we had an "Azuma challenge" competition a year or so back now. We all scavenged what calico oranda we could find, and I happened to get all females, so I used a calico ryukin male for my cross.

I simply desire to enjoy the results and learn about the genetics of these fish. If you are lucky, I might someday show you pictures of them.


Cheers :-*

[Guenther]

A classic red cap x calico will yield red caps metallics and red cap nacreous. Almost no blue as the red cap is basically a demelanized fish. There will be no blue or black pigments in any of the progeny after a year or so.

I think the same


Calico blue is very elusive. I think it is a matter of selective breeding and sheer luck.I gave my blue calicos away when they were 2 years old, must have had sheer luck for 3 years in a row breeding blue fish:

http://www.youtube.com/user/FantailBreeder#p/u/8/RiAblc0a1S8

-

[orandablue]

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/tulip.jpgcalico
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/herbie.jpgblk red oranda
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/redcap.jpg red cap
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/bluepearl2.jpg
Here are some of what I have to work with. I just got this really blue calico pearlscales. (small) And the red cap, male. The blk n red oranda is male.

[orandablue]

and my blue collection.http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/bluepearl3.jpg
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/bluetele.jpgwillow telescope
(from raingarden)
Go ahead and tell me their crap or advise on pairing.I think both are females.:-*

[orandablue]

Do I seriously have to go find a "Pinky Matte"? What exactly would I be looking for!? To say make an Azuma. This is the only one I have and it is deformed.