Should we really cull all the pinkies?

[Guenther]

Most breeders of calico fish cull the pinkies very early.
Here I show you two of my pinkies who got away from my ruthless culling :yess:.

The veiltail changed after almost one year into some blue.

http://www.goldfishkeepers.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=9&pictureid=102

Here is another fish from a shubunkin breeding.

http://www.goldfishkeepers.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=9&pictureid=103

After one year this fish developed into a very nice blue pondfish.

Maybe it is a mistake to cull all the pinkies?
http://www.goldfishkeepers.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=9&pictureid=104

[bekko]

Waiting for them to turn blue seems to take forever - doesn't it.

I try to develop a vision of what the end-product is to look like and resolve that this time I will stick to the breeding plan and not get sidetracked. Then about the second cull something interesting pops up and before you know it the vision/plan is out the window and there are more "keeper" fish than there is room. Does this happen to you?

-steve

[mikroll]

Waiting for them to turn blue seems to take forever - doesn't it.

I try to develop a vision of what the end-product is to look like and resolve that this time I will stick to the breeding plan and not get sidetracked. Then about the second cull something interesting pops up and before you know it the vision/plan is out the window and there are more "keeper" fish than there is room. Does this happen to you?

-steve
all the time :yeahbaby:

[Fishdork]

There must be room for just one more fish. There's a chance it will look good someday.

[bluebelly]

I never cull pinkies. Actually I have pinkie ponds and breed pinkie to pinkie in single tail and twin tail , I use pinkies and color matts in all aspects of my breeding. I also keep a lot of metallics from nacreous spawns. I have the room to do this otherwise you have to cull at some point. Pinkie matts can and do live under the ice in the right conditions .I have caught pinkie bristols a foot long in their second year here in Ohio.Matt power.

[Guenther]

I never cull pinkies. Actually I have pinkie ponds and breed pinkie to pinkie in single tail and twin tail , I use pinkies and color matts in all aspects of my breeding. I also keep a lot of metallics from nacreous spawns. I have the room to do this otherwise you have to cull at some point. Pinkie matts can and do live under the ice in the right conditions .I have caught pinkie bristols a foot long in their second year here in Ohio.Matt power.

Well done Dave!:yess:

[orandablue]

Beat China to it. SUPER PINK GF! The new "black"!

[johnatoranchu]

I admit to keeping a few pinkies back from a Bristol Shubunkin spawning in 2008 for experimental work but by and large there really is no point in keeping them. They tend to be weaker than their calico siblings (i've lost 2 this winter as they went heavy)and not as colourful so unless space is unlimited their value/use is quesionable.
John

[Cincy Ranchu]

I am keeping some Bristol Pinkies to metallics and selecting the ones with blue on the lateral line, my hop is to go for a 100% calico spawn.


Also many years ago there was a big argument about in ability to raise pinkies to maturity because of lack of correct muscular and nervous system development, basically if you take two unrelated fish and breed them a small percentage of the offspring are quite hardy and vigorous, somewhere on the web is a Geocities web site posting and a veil matt is featured from a hamanashiki to a calico philadelphia cross that I did many years ago... quite fun I reccomend it highly.

Some day we will have a show in Cleveland and will get Bluebelly to bring in some giant colored matts, pastels really interesting!

[sc569]

Gary,

I posted two papers as pdf files. One paper was very interesting in that they bred matts for ten generations to make sure that they bred true!

[bluebelly]

Streamson I am in my thirteenth generation on color matts, one geneticist I know says they will revert to nacreous and two say they will stay as matts. when I discovered the greens I thought they were reverting but no they are true color matts.

[sc569]

Bluebelly,

Please read the Kajishima paper. He distinctly said that there is another locus that sounds like the colored matts - recessive transparent. They breed true as they are homozygous.

Also, I reread the Chan paper from 1927. There are some weird notions there as genetics was relatively undeveloped. But, he also stated that in mating two metallics, he produced fish that had transparent scales. Sounds like bluebellies to me. These are different from the calico/matt fish that he describes first.

This is back in 1927 so the gene pool was already diverse and very mixed.

[bluebelly]

Streamson I have a hundred foot pond in my back yard stocked with philly single tail metallic only. One day I netted 5 pinkie matts out of the pond, no explanation where they came from. I always use 40 years as when the gene pool was mixed it must be 90 years.

[Guenther]

Bluebelly,

Please read the Kajishima paper...

Streamson, can you please tell the forum which paper from Kajishima you are talking about?
I have the papers from 1958, 1960 I, 1960 II, 1977...

[sc569]

Sorry, it is the Kajishima 1977 paper.

There, he also talks about inheritance of albinism and calicos.

Interestingly, he and the field continue to use Chen's initial notation for the metallic/matt locus, T. But, the recessive allele is now denoted as t, in accordance with current convention. Please note that this is 50 years later (1927 to 1977), so geneticists take precedence and priority as a serious matter. Also, it is a matter of deference. Imagine the mess if everyone called the same thing by a different name each time they want to write a new paper.