Who is breeding Veiltail in the US

[terryl]

Other than Gary and Al Foster, who else is breeding veiltail in the US? I would like to know what color are they breeding and their experience as breeders.
Three months ago my Veiltails, from Al, spawned twice and I was able to raise several hundred fries. However, many of them have significant birth defects, including poor body shape, deformed tail, fin, and many has a “bubble” under their chins. I was only able to keep about 5 percent after several significant culling. I am expecting culling much more in the next few months.
Do UK breeders has better luck than us in the US? Since the UK veiltail has separated from the US line for several decades, their genetical makeup may be very different from what we have here. Do they have stronger genetic makeup?
Terry

[bekko]

I have never bred veiltails. However, culling 95% is not too unusual for difficult varieties. Getting 2% show-quality fish is an acceptable return.

As a general rule-of-thumb, if the culls are predominantly weak and deformed offspring then it is time to out-cross. If the culls are predominantly strong fish but with primitive conformation then you should in-breed.

-steve

[Daryl]

Oh - wow. That is SUCH a precise way of putting it!!!!! GREAT post!!! I will have to remember your words.....

:worship:

[afertuna]

There are many breeders popping out here in this chat group. I have ton of fry right now mainly from Janet Perdum's line of veils But I do have some of Gary's line I bred into her line so I cant wait to see the result. I will of course keep you updated on them as they develop. I do have some that I bred into some veil telescopes and butterflies to outcross and get stronger tails and opening the blood line.

[johnatoranchu]

Other than Gary and Al Foster, who else is breeding veiltail in the US? I would like to know what color are they breeding and their experience as breeders.
Three months ago my Veiltails, from Al, spawned twice and I was able to raise several hundred fries. However, many of them have significant birth defects, including poor body shape, deformed tail, fin, and many has a “bubble” under their chins. I was only able to keep about 5 percent after several significant culling. I am expecting culling much more in the next few months.
Do UK breeders has better luck than us in the US? Since the UK veiltail has separated from the US line for several decades, their genetical makeup may be very different from what we have here. Do they have stronger genetic makeup?
Terry

As Goldfish go, the Veiltail is genetically a simple variety but that is not to imply that they are necessarily easy. On the face of it your results are poor. Yes if 2% were of show quality then that is good but at least 15-20% should be of an acceptable, "salable" standard. It's probably true to say that 2% show quality fish is more than acceptable in any spawning of any variety because quite frankly the better the quality the higher you raise the "show
standard" bar. I suspect that there are several problems facing the American Veiltail breeder BUT PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I'M AN OUTSIDER (an alien as far as your immigration officers on passport control are concerned!) so if you think I've got it wrong please tell me.

I breed both metallic and calico Veiltails. My metallics are probably among the best in the UK, my calicos are not. I am convinced that one of the reasons for my success with my METALLICS is that I returned from the States in 2001 with a pair of Al Foster's Veils. The dorsal and caudal fins on his fish were far superior to the finnage on the Veils in the UK and the marriage between Al's line and my own has proved very successful but like most marriages there have been ups and downs. The major up was of course the main reason for the cross and was therefore a major success which was the transference of longer tails and higher dorsals: the downs included an increase in the number of chin bubbles (I had them before but their incidence increased after the initial crosses) and single anal fins (virtually unheard of in my line prior to the outcross). Nothing in goldfish breeding is right, wrong or even straightforward. I think that there is a link between long finnage and single anal fins and I will use single analled fish in my breeding programmes. The vast majority of UK breeders will not breed with single analled fish, believing such a move to be detrimental. Our show standards insist that all twin tailed fish, which of course includes the Veiltail, MUST have twin anal fins, if they haven't they are disqualified automatically regardless of their other attributes.
To return to my thoughts on the American breeding scene. I see a number of problem areas and I agree that some of them are contradictory.
1. the vast distance between you makes communication and interaction difficult with the result that "you" tend to do "your" own thing. You have little opportunity to learn from one another on a regular basis with the fish in front of you. Exchanging fish becomes difficult which possibly encourages too much inbreeding which is both good and acceptable in the short term but disastrous in the long term.
2. your Standards are too loose. For example single anal fins are allowed on your show bench with the result that breeders can find a ready market for single analled fish. Culling is not strict enough and there is too much emphasis on numbers rather than quality. We have a UK/USA joke in the Breeders' Social - Culling in England means killing; culling in the USA means moving fish from one tank to another!
3. generally, breeding goldfish is are not encouraged in the USA. In the UK for example our shows provide for three different types of classes. "Open" classes (fish of any age are exhibited here and the fish do not have to be "owner-bred") and "breeders' teams of four fish" and "breeders single entry fish" (i.e. one fish) classes. All the fish in Breeders classes must have been bred during the current year by the exhibitor. These are the classes most of us strive to win. Very few hobbyists in the UK other than beginners show fish they have bought and any bought fish must have been in the exhibitors' possession for at least a month prior to the date of the show. Contrast this with American shows where fish can be purchased "ready made" from traders at the show and entered into the show immediately by the purchaser.
4. the best way of producing Veiltails is Veiltail x Veiltail. The "American Way" seems (to me) to be breed a Veiltail to any variety which takes your fancy - Ryukin, Fantail, Telescope etc. F1's can provide short term success but unless culling is rigorous and the offspring kept in-house for at least 3 generations, mongrels result and create havoc when purchasers, unaware of their fish's background, breed from them. Many American "Veiltails" I have seen have such pronounced Ryukin humps that I would disqualify them if they were shown in the UK in Veiltail classes.
5. I need to go one stage further not only should Veiltails be mated to Veiltails but they should also be mated to Veiltails of the same scale group i.e calico x calico, metallic x metallic. Other crosses should be left to the very experienced.

I think I might be rambling as I can't see the original thread and if I go on I might not have any American friends left but if any one wants to ask other Veiltail questions or put me right please respond.
John

[Daryl]

I hope that I can continue to call you "friend", John - your advice is always full of information!

:)

Getting Veil to Veil is tough - there is a dramatic shortage of suitable breeders - "purebred" fish in the STates. Most - as you have noted - are of mixed heritage. Tough - but I think with enough generations, they can be "cleaned up". This is where that "brutal culling" part comes in........

"tank to tank". I will remember that!!!!! :)

[Guenther]

5. I need to go one stage further not only should Veiltails be mated to Veiltails but they should also be mated to Veiltails of the same scale group i.e calico x calico, metallic x metallic. Other crosses should be left to the very experienced.

John, why would you only allow crossing calico X calico?
If you cross calico X calico IMHO you get calicos, matts and metallic. Is that your goal?

[Cincy Ranchu]

As Goldfish go, the Veiltail is genetically a simple variety but that is not to imply that they are necessarily easy. On the face of it your results are poor. Yes if 2% were of show quality then that is good but at least 15-20% should be of an acceptable, "salable" standard. It's probably true to say that 2% show quality fish is more than acceptable in any spawning of any variety because quite frankly the better the quality the higher you raise the "show
standard" bar. I suspect that there are several problems facing the American Veiltail breeder BUT PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I'M AN OUTSIDER (an alien as far as your immigration officers on passport control are concerned!) so if you think I've got it wrong please tell me.

I breed both metallic and calico Veiltails. My metallics are probably among the best in the UK, my calicos are not. I am convinced that one of the reasons for my success with my METALLICS is that I returned from the States in 2001 with a pair of Al Foster's Veils. The dorsal and caudal fins on his fish were far superior to the finnage on the Veils in the UK and the marriage between Al's line and my own has proved very successful but like most marriages there have been ups and downs. The major up was of course the main reason for the cross and was therefore a major success which was the transference of longer tails and higher dorsals: the downs included an increase in the number of chin bubbles (I had them before but their incidence increased after the initial crosses) and single anal fins (virtually unheard of in my line prior to the outcross). Nothing in goldfish breeding is right, wrong or even straightforward. I think that there is a link between long finnage and single anal fins and I will use single analled fish in my breeding programmes. The vast majority of UK breeders will not breed with single analled fish, believing such a move to be detrimental. Our show standards insist that all twin tailed fish, which of course includes the Veiltail, MUST have twin anal fins, if they haven't they are disqualified automatically regardless of their other attributes.
To return to my thoughts on the American breeding scene. I see a number of problem areas and I agree that some of them are contradictory.
1. the vast distance between you makes communication and interaction difficult with the result that "you" tend to do "your" own thing. You have little opportunity to learn from one another on a regular basis with the fish in front of you. Exchanging fish becomes difficult which possibly encourages too much inbreeding which is both good and acceptable in the short term but disastrous in the long term.
2. your Standards are too loose. For example single anal fins are allowed on your show bench with the result that breeders can find a ready market for single analled fish. Culling is not strict enough and there is too much emphasis on numbers rather than quality. We have a UK/USA joke in the Breeders' Social - Culling in England means killing; culling in the USA means moving fish from one tank to another!
3. generally, breeding goldfish is are not encouraged in the USA. In the UK for example our shows provide for three different types of classes. "Open" classes (fish of any age are exhibited here and the fish do not have to be "owner-bred") and "breeders' teams of four fish" and "breeders single entry fish" (i.e. one fish) classes. All the fish in Breeders classes must have been bred during the current year by the exhibitor. These are the classes most of us strive to win. Very few hobbyists in the UK other than beginners show fish they have bought and any bought fish must have been in the exhibitors' possession for at least a month prior to the date of the show. Contrast this with American shows where fish can be purchased "ready made" from traders at the show and entered into the show immediately by the purchaser.
4. the best way of producing Veiltails is Veiltail x Veiltail. The "American Way" seems (to me) to be breed a Veiltail to any variety which takes your fancy - Ryukin, Fantail, Telescope etc. F1's can provide short term success but unless culling is rigorous and the offspring kept in-house for at least 3 generations, mongrels result and create havoc when purchasers, unaware of their fish's background, breed from them. Many American "Veiltails" I have seen have such pronounced Ryukin humps that I would disqualify them if they were shown in the UK in Veiltail classes.
5. I need to go one stage further not only should Veiltails be mated to Veiltails but they should also be mated to Veiltails of the same scale group i.e calico x calico, metallic x metallic. Other crosses should be left to the very experienced.

I think I might be rambling as I can't see the original thread and if I go on I might not have any American friends left but if any one wants to ask other Veiltail questions or put me right please respond.
John

This is great, the breeding of the philadelphia Veiltail seldom results in more than 5% fish that exhinbit( this is precisely why no one have ever commercialized this fish), but 20% great fish is common as the only flaw if twisted pectoral fins. The bubble chin is a wirerd one for me as my Foster line mostly have a chinese "Jakie Chan" blue Oranda dip, (out cross) y the late AL Thoma and not late Al Foster. In order to prevent the homo-zygous veiltail flaw, one should not breed veilatil to veiltail, but Veiltail to "chop" Tail or ( fantail offsring),m see the blog discussion between Allen and me. The inserttion of Ryukin blood by Janet is a nice but non classical diversion from the clasical shape, ( Oranda back, some head graowth at age 4), the INNES book plate of 1936 dictates the form. Both tin the US and ther UK the problem is always the same, inbreeding leading to destruction of the line via the occurance of inbreeding flaws.:exact: these flaws include; buble eyes and chins, pearscales, mucous globs on the tails, twisted pectorals, and open operculums.

Also, breeders new to this game
Culling for perfect tails at too early of an age.
selecting for straight pectorals only.
failing to trade fry and females with other breeders
Starting of a colony with less than 10 fish
A complete failure to understand inbreeding genetics and mate selection.
Missing the point of not breeding to homozygosity.
Making the wrong out cross, US breeders should only use Amercian Oranadas or American Fantails
UK breeders should import from the US as that is where their stock comes from, as Parker did in 2001.
Selection of sub adults should be for swimming ability first and tail second. It is OK to have semi imperfect tails in the first 20 months.
Many breeeders select for too long of a tail, resulting a line of tail standers, a death march!:badidea:


Many breeders buy a few fish and then run off to create their own stuff, without investing in quality phone conversation. Al Foster and I talked for 600 weekends out of 625 weekends before I went out on my own, it is the equivalent of a Japanese Kai..... " one must know the fish in order to not repeat the cycle of failures!"

THX GH

[terryl]

Thanks John and Gary....Great discussion. There is a lot for me to learn. I am lucky to have Al Foster living in the driving distance. This forum will also be a great help for the years tocome.

The 5% I keep so far is far from show standard. I would say I am lucky if I can endup having 5 fish that are acceptable for show standard. For other gold fish that I had breeded at the past (mainly Ranchu, Chinese lionhead, oranda, crown pearlscale, and redcap), I think I would be able to keep more than 50% at sale-able standard, and 10-15% show standard.

"Bubble chin" was never a major problem in my breeding experience. Most fish were culled for single tail and deformed body shape when the fish was able the size of a rice grain (about 15-20%). This usually happened at the end of their first month. The second level of culling was usually for poor tail shape and dorsal fin when the fish were at size of a peanut (another 20% gone). The final "cull" is to seperate fish that had the potential to grow into big fish from those who did not had that potential - usually by the head to body ratio. We sold those who did not have the potential to become big fish when they were about an inch to two inches long (like those you see at Patmart at $4.99 each). The big fish was usually sold at the end of summer to early fall. We usually kept some fish to grow to moster size (e.g. 8+ inches ranchu and oranda,those you can only hold by using two hands).

I think it is another ball game when breeding veiltail. Th 95% cull after the first 3 month is a big disappointment. I guess breeders in the US need to work together more to strengthen the the veiltail line we have.


Terry

[afertuna]

I am new to this and yes I do breed others into the line....unfortionantly in my area of the USA there are very few Veils around. I have been learning as I go talking to other breeders and learning from my mistakes. I appreciate the veiws of the UK and the breeders from there but it is true there are very few breeders here in the states.But to be honest the elitist comments is what turned me off of Koi SHows and breeding. The Philidelphia Veil has a few accetable outcrosses including Ryukin,Telescope,Oranda's. Most of the breed has disapeared so some of us are at grass roots having at times use these breeds to bring back the veil to its hayday.I am not trying to be rude or argumentive just please understand we DONT have the same ability to just breed veil to veils all the time. The blue and Calico's are all but gone there are few but not enough for all of the breeders to breed calico to calico.... Thank you

[afertuna]

John,
I hope you dont take my last post wrong. I can assur you I have nothing but the best intentions with the Veils I am sure Gary will get tired of my e-mails,calls,pvt messages with question after question. There are some of us here that want to see Bred by exhibitor in the shows here in the states.Alot of the shows in my experience is who has the largest pocket book. I hope that in the future I can bend your ear. Reading your post only brought back bad memories of Koi shows and breeders talking down to me about my fish and breeding and long finned fish....I did though manage to take Grand Champion Long fin this year with my "pet store quality fish" I appologise if I came across grumpy

[Guenther]

The blue and Calico's are all but gone there are few but not enough for all of the breeders to breed calico to calico.... Thank you

Dear afertuna and goldfishfriends,

why would you want to breed calico X calico?

To add to my own experiences I had some email with Brian Reeder, from USA, how to breed good and blue calicos.
Brian told me that the way to do this, is not to only breed calico x calico.
Calicos are crosses between matt/calicos X metallic.
For good colours you need special selected metallic fish in calico lines.
I followed his advice and got some nice blue fishes as you can see at my website and at this forum. But please understand when looking at my breeding results, in Germany I did not have access to good fish, all my first breeders came from petstores for 1 or 2 Dollar price.

Regards

[johnatoranchu]

John, why would you only allow crossing calico X calico?
If you cross calico X calico IMHO you get calicos, matts and metallic. Is that your goal?

Hi Guenther
The reason I suggest mating calico x calico is that mating the "wrong" metallic to calicos can destroy the ideal calico coloration for generations. By "ideal calico coloration" I mean - mainly blue body with small areas of red (ideally around the head) with the whole peppered with black spots. Whilst using the "wrong" metallic can result in colourful youngsters initially, in my experience any blue and black present starts fading after 4/5 months and after a year the youngsters are just red and white (similar to the picture of your calico female posted in the breeding thread you started). By "wrong" metallic I mean coloured metallics - red, silver,(selfs and variegated), most blacks and even uncoloured metallics when they are carrying the decolouring gene (which of course you can't be sure of until you breed from them - a vicious circle! Metallic blue might be different but my experience of those is limited but if I have space I might spawn blue metallic Oranda to calico Oranda this year. In 1990 I started a line of Edonishki (calico Ranchu). The Edonishiki I started with were of poor quality and breeding them together produced nothing but rubbish. The only way I could improve the body shape, finnage and hood development was to cross them into my line of "metallic" Ranchu. The crosses worked well and I achieved my aim and bred the line for 10 generations but for the first 6 generations the majority of the fish lost their blue and black coloration before they were 12 months old.
Your previous posts fascinated me and I wanted to ask you a number of questions concerning the way you bred your blue Fantails. You said that the selected "uncoloured" male was 3 years old and that he had to be that age to show the desired characteristics. I could see nothing "special" about his colour so am I right in assuming that he was from calico stock and that you waited 3 years essentially to see whether he would remain uncoloured or whether he would decolour to red? Also why did you select that particular female which, as far as I could tell, had no blue? Would it not have been better to use the bluist female you could find? I have delayed responding to your thread earlier as I am also the Bulletin Editor for the Goldfish Society of Great Britain and completing the January Bulletin was my priority. Their are a couple of articles in there which might appeal to you. One is ongoing and it chronicles one of our member's efforts to produce calico Fantails and the other is my own article featuring my experience with "pinkie" matt Bristol Shubunkins this year which is causing me to totally rethink the genetic significance of metallic - calico - matt classifications. If you will email me at john@oranchu.com I will email a copy to you.
Having recommended mating calico Veiltails x calico Veiltails that isn't necessarily what I do! In fact I invariably mate metallic x calico but the metallic parents I use are always uncoloured mock metallics. Unlike "normal" metallics, mock metallics do not destroy the blue and black in calico offspring, if anything they enhance it but I did not want to add this complication to my earlier post. I did in fact spend a while having a close look at the photo of your uncoloured Fantail as I almost expected it to be a mock metallic but it isn't - is it?
John

[johnatoranchu]

John,
I hope you dont take my last post wrong. I can assur you I have nothing but the best intentions with the Veils I am sure Gary will get tired of my e-mails,calls,pvt messages with question after question. There are some of us here that want to see Bred by exhibitor in the shows here in the states.Alot of the shows in my experience is who has the largest pocket book. I hope that in the future I can bend your ear. Reading your post only brought back bad memories of Koi shows and breeders talking down to me about my fish and breeding and long finned fish....I did though manage to take Grand Champion Long fin this year with my "pet store quality fish" I appologise if I came across grumpy

No worries and you certainly did not come across as "grumpy". I have to be careful as I'm seeking to comment on what goes on in the States and of course I'm "an alien". Face to face conversations are always much easier as eye contact and body language set the scene. The written word unfortunately can easily be seen to be dogmatic and/or talking down when there was no intention so to do particularly from someone like me who is one of the slowest typists in the world so I save time/typing by missing out "niceties".

Let me add to producing Veiltails - sorry in advance as this may sound as though I'm talking down to the Forum members but this is certainly not my intention.
STEP 1. Decide in your own mind what your ideal Veiltail looks like. To me the perfect Veiltail has a round body, fine "v" shaped head, high upright dorsal fin, long divided double veil tail with straight edges, with all other fins to be long and anals to be long and twin.
STEP 2. How do we stand the best chance of producing good examples. Easy - by breeding a good Veiltail to a good Veiltail.
STEP 3. WHAT IF we only have ONE Veiltail and cannot get another or the Veiltails we have are throwing poor quality youngsters and we can't get pure bred Veiltails from another strain to effect an out cross?
STEP 4. Consider using another variety as an out cross.
STEP 5. Which varieties could/have been considered?
Orandas, Telescopes, Fantails, High Hat Pearlscales, Ryukin.
STEP 6. What attributes do these varieties share with the Veiltail and which can be utilised to improve the Veiltail. What attributes do these varieties possess which are alien to the Veiltail and which will need to be eradicated?
STEP 7. Let's consider the Oranda.
a) Divided finnage? Yes.
b) Round body? Yes, sometimes.
c) Fine "V" shaped head? No - in fact Oranda's head is wide and cares hood growth.
d) High, upright dorsal fin? No. Dorsal is short.
e) Long " veil" tail with straight edges and all other fins long? No, fins are normally short, carried as a fan with rounded lobes and indentation between the lobes. Longer tailed specimens are available but not in your local store!!
CONCLUSION. What attributes does the Oranda share with the Veiltail? Divided finage and rounded body sometimes.
What attributes does the Oranda possess which will need to be eradicated if they were to appear on Veiltails? Head shape, hood, short finnage, indented fan tail.
GIVEN THE ABOVE, DO YOU THINK THAT THE ORANDA WOULD MAKE A GOOD OUT CROSS?

STEP 8. Let's consider TELESCOPES
a) Yes.
b) Yes.
c) No. Telescopes head is short and has PROTRUDING EYES.
d) No. Dorsal is invariably short but slightly longer dorsals can be found on variety sold as Broadtail Moor/Telescope.
e) Invariably No but veil tails can be found on the Variety sold as Broadtail Moor/Telescope.
CONCLUSION. What attributes does the Telescope share with the Veiltail?
Divided finage and rounded body and if Broadtail Moor/Telescope is used reasonably high dorsal, long finage and veil tail.
What attributes do Telescopes possess which would need to be eradicated if they appeared on Veiltails? Short head and protruding eyes if Broadtail Telescope/Moor was used.
GIVEN THE ABOVE DO YOU THINK THAT THE TELESCOPE WOULD MAKE A GOOD OUT CROSS?

STEP 9. Let's consider FANTAILS.
a) Yes.
b/ No. Usually egg-shaped.
c) Yes
d) No. Dorsal is short.
e) No. Tail is short, forked and upright.
CONCLUSION. What attributes does the Fantail share with the Veiltail?
Divided finage and reasonably fine "V" shaped head.
What attributes does the Fantail possess which would need to be eradicated if they appeared on Veiltails?
Egg-shaped body, short finage, forked tail, upright tail carriage.
GIVEN THE ABOVE DO YOU THINK THAT THE FANTAIL WOULD MAKE A GOOD OUT CROSS?

STEP 10. Let's consider the HIGH HAT PEARLSCALE
a) Yes.
b) Yes, possibly too rounded.
c) No. Broad blunt head with hood growth.
d) No, dorsal is short.
e) No, tail is straight edged and veils but all fins are short.
CONCLUSION. What attributes does the H H Pearlscale share with the Veiltail?
Divided finage and straight edge to caudal. Possibly acceptable body shape.
What attributes does the H H Pearlscale possess which would need to be eradicated if they appeared on Veiltails?
Head shape, hood growth, pearl scaling and short finage.
GIVEN THE ABOVE DO YOU THINK THAT THE H H PEARLSCALE WOULD MAKE A GOOD OUT CROSS?

STEP11. Let's consider the RYUKIN.
a) Yes
b) Yes, apart from the hump which is often small/non existent on calico Ryukin.
c) Yes.
d) Yes, if long finned/broadtailed Ryukin is used.
e) Yes, if Broadtail Ryukin is used.
CONCLUSION. What attributes does the Ryukin share with the Veiltail?
If you select a broadtail calico Ryukin then all of them actually.
What attributes does the Ryukin possess which would need to be eradicated if they appeared on Veiltails? Just watch for developing humps!
GIVEN THE ABOVE DO YOU THINK THAT THE RYUKIN WOULD MAKE A GOOD OUT CROSS?

To me the decision is a no brainer but what do YOU think?
John

[johnatoranchu]

Dear afertuna and goldfishfriends,

why would you want to breed calico X calico?

To add to my own experiences I had some email with Brian Reeder, from USA, how to breed good and blue calicos.
Brian told me that the way to do this, is not to only breed calico x calico.
Calicos are crosses between matt/calicos X metallic.
For good colours you need special selected metallic fish in calico lines.
I followed his advice and got some nice blue fishes as you can see at my website and at this forum. But please understand when looking at my breeding results, in Germany I did not have access to good fish, all my first breeders came from petstores for 1 or 2 Dollar price.

Regards

Hi Guenther
I replied to your previous post without seeing the one quoted above. Maybe I'm wrong but I would suggest that the best calico goldfish in the West as far as colour is concerned is the UK's Bristol Shubunkin. They have been bred for generations spanning many decades from calico x calico spawnings. Only recently have breeders introduced mock metallics into their breeding programmes.
John

[Veil Gal]

For those who have experience in this area.... If your best veiltails are metallics, and your calico veils are breedable, but really look like "pinks" with a little black and blue mixed in- Would you consider breeding to a poor quality calico ryukin. Meaning--one w/o a hump? If this might be acceptable what calico colorations would be best? Lots of black polka dots on a white background? Or would a grey fish with black dots be good? Blue is very, very hard to find. Wha tabout an uncolored veil?
Spawns are so much work, and I don't have tons of water, so I want to make an informed decision on a cross.
Calico coloration can run an entire gamut of dark to light, and the ideal coloration is not available in my neck of the woods. Comments?

[Guenther]

Hi John

First, thank you for your long, detailed answer!


> ...Metallic blue might be different but
> my experience of those is limited

Maybe you or other breeders finde many answers in this article from Chen:

THE INHERITANCE OF BLUE AND BROWN COLOURS IN GOLDFISH (http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/29/61.pdf)

> but for the first 6
> generations the majority of the fish lost their blue and black coloration
> before they were 12 months old

I think, there must be at least two attributes for breeding blue calico goldsfish:
#1 a deep layer of melanin under the skin
#2 this melanin must be stable over a long time

> Your previous posts fascinated me and I wanted to ask you a number of
> questions concerning the way you bred your blue Fantails. You said that the
> selected "uncoloured" male was 3 years old and that he had to be that age to
> show the desired characteristics. I could see nothing "special" about his
> colour so am I right in assuming that he was from calico stock and that you
> waited 3 years essentially to see whether he would remain uncoloured or
> whether he would decolour to red?

Yes, see point #2 above
When I wrote this sentence in the article, I was hoping that somebody would ask me this question! :)

> Also why did you select that particular
> female which, as far as I could tell, had no blue? Would it not have been
> better to use the bluist female you could find?

Yes that would have been better.
But, I had no better fish. Finding high quality goldfish is not easy in Germany.
Yet this female had the shape I wanted to breed fantails with shorter tails. Also she comes from a blue line and I wanted colourful fantails.

> I have delayed responding to
> your thread earlier as I am also the Bulletin Editor for the Goldfish
> Society of Great Britain and completing the January Bulletin was my
> priority. Their are a couple of articles in there which might appeal to you.
> One is ongoing and it chronicles one of our member's efforts to produce
> calico Fantails and the other is my own article featuring my experience with
> "pinkie" matt Bristol Shubunkins this year which is causing me to totally
> rethink the genetic significance of metallic - calico - matt
> classifications. If you will email me at john@oranchu.com (mhtml:{A7B429FC-DBCA-46E9-9B8B-4911CAE921BA}mid://00000054/!x-usc:mailto:john@oranchu.com) I will email a
> copy to you.

I will, of course :)
Thank you!

> Having recommended mating calico Veiltails x calico Veiltails that isn't
> necessarily what I do! In fact I invariably mate metallic x calico but the
> metallic parents I use are always uncoloured mock metallics. Unlike "normal"
> metallics, mock metallics do not destroy the blue and black in calico
> offspring, if anything they enhance it but I did not want to add this
> complication to my earlier post. I did in fact spend a while having a close
> look at the photo of your uncoloured Fantail as I almost expected it to be a
> mock metallic but it isn't - is it?

No, I think it is not a mock metallic fish. Here is a better image:
http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/071206_big.jpg

It is "only" a late late late demelanizer from a calico line. Using this, for me very valuable fish, is one key to breed blue calico with stable blue and stable black pattern.

Regards

[Guenther]

Hi John

Hi Guenther
I replied to your previous post without seeing the one quoted above. Maybe I'm wrong but I would suggest that the best calico goldfish in the West as far as colour is concerned is the UK's Bristol Shubunkin. They have been bred for generations spanning many decades from calico x calico spawnings. Only recently have breeders introduced mock metallics into their breeding programmes.
John

I too like the Bristol Shubunkin very much.

During the short time I have been breeding calicos, it was my experience that this calicos lost their colours, especially beginning at F4.
During this time Brian was very helpful to me by suggesting to get colours back through crossing a late metallic demelanizer from a blue line.

Regards

[bekko]

John, for pairing a veiltail, finding a good broadtail moor in the US may be harder than finding a good veiltail. Also, I do not think you need to resort to calico ryukin for an out-cross. I have yet to see a batch of metallic ryukin offspring which did not have plenty of fish without a pronounced hump. In recreating the watonai, I first tried using a fairly nice ryukin male. The results were not good and it was necessary to start over using an old style hump-less ryukin for the ryukin x wakin cross. Otherwise, the watonai body is not elongated enough.

Guenther, thanks for the Chen article. I had never heard of a blue-brown goldfish before. It's a pity that his line of true-breeding blue-brown fish has apparently been lost.

-steve

[Guenther]

Dear Steve


Guenther, thanks for the Chen article. I had never heard of a blue-brown goldfish before. It's a pity that his line of true-breeding blue-brown fish has apparently been lost.

-steve

When I read this article, my thinking was that maybe there are interested breeders who would like to bring back this true breeding blue metallic goldfish or the true breeding brown metallic goldfish.
This article is the best instruction I have ever read on how to do it.

Regards

[Cincy Ranchu]

All,

I think the discussion is too general. Are we talking about the new Foster r/w line, the historical Philedelphia red line, or the Purdam hybrid line. When talking about veils the size of the net to catch generaliztions should be carefully thrown. The vew Foster r/w line and the Purdam line are not nearly as fixed as the Foster red line. Also I still think culling small veiltails for tail squarenes prior to 9 months is a catastrophic mistake, this is seconded only by culling for twisted pectorals:badidea:

Also, we might be talking about a bad female, a fixed philadelphia line yields 20% sellable fish and more like 10% show quality.... Call Al and ask what line we are discussing

THX GH

[terryl]

Gary and other:

Will you cull all babies goldfish with bubble chin? I found out that bubble chin only associates with those with long fin and long tail - those look like veil tail. The Al Foster veiltails throw two types of babies - some are round body with short fin and tail - More like a Ryukin. Other look like baby vailtails, with long fin and long tail. But, a relative large percentage (30%-40%) of the these vailtail like babies have bubble chin.

I am considering culling all those with bubble chin, but thinking whether some of them will out-grow the problem when they are older?

Any suggestion?

[Veil Gal]

I have one very nice "blue-ish" male veil who has a chin bubble. This is the ONLY fish I have ever observed with this abnormality. This fish is almost two years old and, no, the bubble has not disappeared over time.
I am VERY interested to know what the more experienced veiltail breeders think--is the bubble fault readily passed on? If the fish is otherwise very nice, could it be bred from--Or is the bubble fault so dominant that it would affect a large proportion of the fry spawned from such a fish? With breeding, there are faults, and then there are FAULTS.
In dog breeding it is usually better to breed from a superior individual with one fault, than a mediocre individual with no glaring faults but no outstanding virtues.
Will our master breeders, please share their experience?:youtellme:

[sc569]

Veiltail gal,

Goldfish have huge spawns - several hundred to several thousand. You cull to get the combination you like. Faults will segregate out if you go through enough fish. Then, it is a matter of being lucky enough to fix the desirable trait and eliminate faults.

Breeding mammals is different since you are limited to 12 or less.

I am still trying to get rid of decolorizing trait in my calico veils. It shows up faster in calicos than metallics. The calicos decolorize in the first year whereas the metallics can take years. This came in from using the Thai broadtail moors. This is one argument for doing a calico x calico cross. You still get the same number of calicos plus you can breed from fish that have the color you want.

Streamson

[sc569]

Gary,

I really doubt that even a fixed Philly line yields 20% sellable fry.

If that is the case, then why did the Philly line die out? You make it sound like it is easy to generate high quality veils.

And 10% show quality fry is kind of high, I think.

Streamson

[terryl]

After almost a year of effort and raised several large spawns, I come to believe that it may not worth the effort to fix the US veiltail. There are so many genetical problems that most frys are deformed. My first two big spwans in Sep last year did not even yield one fish that is acceptable. My big spawns in March this year has been seriously culled for deforms (deformed month, bubble chin, deformed tail, deformed body shape, etc). the number of fish came down from several thousands to less than 30 as of this week. Among the remaining 30, I don't delieve I will be able to have a high single digit number that are acceptable.

I would love to hear the experience of other breeders in the US as well as breeders in the UK.


Terry

[sc569]

Terry,

I have been inbreeding and linebreeding calico veils for several generations now. I am at F4. I can now get about 1% to 5% acceptable fry.

My first generation spawns were huge. I think I kept about ~6 veiltails out of several thousand. I also kept short tails but did not breed from those.

So, you can see that the fraction of keepers goes up. However, it is still very low! Most of the problem is slow growth and laziness (feeding, water changes) on my part.

I initially culled for form and finnage. I think I am getting what I want on that part. I am now looking for color but simply hoping to get nice speckling.

I don't think you can make it a commercial venture and keep to your standards. It is far too easy to keep culls for sale, if you can make a buck out of it. Labeling anything a veiltail immediately makes for additional looks and provides justification for a higher price. I am not saying that veils are not worth paying for. You need to find the ones that are worth paying for!

Also, if you are breeding, you need to get a male and a female which are compatible and produce good fry This is not exactly easy either as it is basically a guessing game unless you have an inbred line. Mating unrelated fish is simply an extremely iffy proposition.

Streamson

[terryl]

Streamson，

Thanks for the response. I mainly culled for deforms, rather than fin/tail/body form. The heart-broken part is that there are so many deformed fish, in hundreds.
I already have my share of breeding goldfish for commercial sale (I grew up in a goldfish farm in Hong kong in the 70s and 80s of the last century) and is now mainly breeding fish for fun. I do spent a lot of time with my fish - daily water changes, feeding BBS everyday, and other foods several times a day. So, it is very disheartening to see all the deformed fish.
I know most of the veiltails in the US came from Al Foster’s line. Do you know anyone breeding fish from the UK or from other totally independent line? Is it possible to get up to 10% of reasonable quality frys from veiltail parents.


Terry

[sc569]

Terry,

I have been developing veils for some time now. I am getting happy with what my fish are producing.

If you want a brief history of my fish, I will write it up soon.

I sent fish to Janet Purdum and she has crossed them to Al Foster's stock. I believe that those fish are what some of the people breeding veils are using. You should contact Janet to see what she has. I think the cross is showing very good promise.

English veils are a different story. Gary may have some but I am not sure.

Streamson

[terryl]

Streamson,

I know Al's story as it is widely available in the internet and I also visited him last summer. He is only about an hour drive from my home. I would love to hear the history of your stock, particular if it is not from Al's line or you did significant out-crossing to improve it. Do you also have picture of your veils?

Yes, Gary, please do feed us about experience of breeding UK veil stock in the US when you have time.

Terry

[sc569]

You can see my veils in one of Gary's blog entries. It is the one discussing genetics of veiltail phenotype.

My line is an outcross. I started with Chinese calico broadtails from Goldfish Connection. I was lucky and they spawned the first year. I raised thousands but kept only about 12 veils. The rest were choptails and broadtails. Total, there were about 24 fish. Then, I lost the original imports that were from Jackie Chan.

The next year, all 24 fish happened to be MALES!!!! The odds of that happening are astronomically high against that if it is a 1:1 ratio. For me, I think I get one female to every 6 males now. Not sure why but that is the way it is.

So, I was stuck for about two years until I went to see Carlos Perez. He had gorgeous Thai moors with beautiful bodies and finnage. He had about a dozen and he gifted 4 of them to me. I think he was reluctant to do so but he could tell I really wanted them. I took them home and waited until the next spring. Two of them were females - the broadtails.

So, I started hand spawning again - calico broadtail male to Moor broadtail female. I raised thousands of fry again and got a few high quality veiltails. I kept about a dozen - calico and metallics. The metallics were always better looking in terms of form and finnage. Also, I tried to raise Moors but they were always wimpy and I gave up after two spawns. There was one female in the batch.

So, I am now inbreeding the fish and I am at the 4th generation. The 5th generation fry are growing this spring. I am just barely getting by since I seem to get only one or two keeper females that lay eggs. I have fish that are not males but do not lay eggs, so I do not know what they are.

Body shape and finnage are looking good. I can get 2-3 fish out of ~100 or so that are close to the British standard with deep bodies that are nearly circular and straight finnage. The bad part is that the stock has the demelanizing trait that makes all of the black fade from the calicos in the first year and the metallics in their 2nd or 3rd years. So, I have tried to do some calico x calico spawns to make sure I get this fading trait out of the way.

Attached image is the F1 female. She died two years ago due to swim bladder problems associated with eggbinding. Note that her finnage is fine but she is mainly red and white without black. Also, she is a bit longer bodied than I prefer although she is very well fed in this image and has a full abdomen. Also, not much of a humpback.

[sc569]

Here are two different calico veils at 9 months. Note that they still have the mild notching in the caudals. These were my first generation fry from the Chinese calico broadtail x Thai Moor broadtail cross. The tails didn't fill in until they were about 2 years old.

Also, the fish are mainly red and white with very littl black. This has improved over subsequent generations. The demelanizing trait was in the Thai moor. I know this as the metallic veils that I kept started to turn color at ~3 years old.

Also, the bodies are not as deep as the short tailed siblings. Compare the choptail to the veils and you will notice a marked difference. For best results, you need to massively overfeed or keep the veils separately.

Streamson

[terryl]

Streamson,

Thanks a lot for the history and the pictures. I always has a gut feeling that the veils can be recreated using boardtail through selective breeding.


Your fish are beautiful. It may be just from the picture - do you feel that their body shape (ball shape) and the scales are close to a preal scale fish. My 3 months old veil frys do not look like a veil. They are more like little fan tails. I hope they will change when they grow older.

[sc569]

Young veils look like female delta tail guppies. If you wander the internet and look for images of guppies, the high quality female guppies with the delta tails look like young goldfish veils! No joking.

Also, if you see veiltails that are less than a year old that have amazingly long finnage, then they did not get adequate nutrition, either they have poor appetites or they did not get fed well.

In the guppy forms, there has been an evaluation of nutritional quality of the food on the development of male delta tails. It turns out that mediocre food gives the fantail. The huge spread out tails come about by feeding high quality foods in abundance - home made soft foods or live foods. This means the ones bound for the shows get about 3-6 feedings a day, as much as they'll eat!

I don't do this but I try to feed the fry as much as possible. They should look gorged all the time. The reason is that the fins keep growing and act as a nutrient sink.

[bekko]

Then, I lost the original imports that were from Jackie Chan.

The next year, all 24 fish happened to be MALES!!!!

Your "female" from China was born a male but was given feed laced with a synthetic estrogen when it was a fry. This turns most of the males into females. The females grow a little faster and are more rotund when it comes time to market them. It is also a good way to prevent others from propagating your bloodline. It's sort of creepy and not very ethical, but just part of business for them.

However, these sex-reversed females still carry two male chromosomes. So, when they are bred to a male they produce almost all male offspring. What you describe confirms that over time (many generations) the population will eventually revert to a normal sex ratio.

One of the industrial ramifications of using sex-reversal is that the breeder has to keep a line of non-sex-reversed brood stock separate from the production market fish. But, this is easy enough to do when you have a huge company and a lot of little contract growers supplying fish.

Just another reason to develop relationships with artisanal breeders who are willing to discuss the pedigree of the product they sell (small plug here).

-steve

[sc569]

Bekko,

That is an interesting thought. If the female is sex reversed, then ALL fish would be males. You would never get a true female. And, the sex ratios would never change over time.

I have never had good luck keeping imported fish more than a year. Either though bad luck or an error on my part, the imports usually don't make it past a year. I did have a moor that I kept for over 4 years.

I would like to hear from other breeders about the sex ratios that they are getting.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Streamson and Steve,

My Philadelphia veiltails whjich have not be crossed to Chinese fish for maybe 20 generations ( I'd have to talk to Foster) still have three sexes; Male ( dominant) female, and disinterested. The later sometimes gradually mature but it can be years. Foster did an article and I have been to his house had true bisexual fish one year. Spawned as a male one year and a female the next. That same fish had two vents.

The estrogen lacing discussion makes a tremendous amount of sense, but I never quite figuired out how this was being done.
The observation about the black veiltail moores is true as I have had the same experience with Thai Moores over the years.

Ant thoughts on why it is so difficult to get a percenatge of calico veiltails that match the metallics in the same spawn? I did an Amercican Fantail to a Philadelphia this year and the veiltail ratio was 4 or 6 to 1? The four or five true calico Veiltails are pretty nice at 1.5". They are now in a chosen spot ( 150galtank) and I am hopeful of moving this line along,blue color and black specs and all. BTW, Adam has these Calicoes in agin this year if you are interested, bright blue and red with black specs and tail stripes (<$15 each)

Lastly Steve, ever try to get a veil or broadtail on a Red Cap?

THX GH

[sc569]

Gary,

Thanks for your comments.

I believe that most Moors have the demelanizing trait in them. It shows up later in life though. I remember Joe Smartt telling me that the Brits get pretty annoyed when their Moors turn yellow, which is most of the time.

The metallics grow much faster so it is harder for the calicos to keep up. As I mentioned before, the calicos can be susceptible to intestinal problems due to a lack of gut neurons. Not always but occasionally. While it is true that you can get calicos that grow fast, I seem to be facing slower growth. It could be my fault since I tend to baby them along and don't select for really fast growth.

I have some spawns from a yearling female that is one of the better females that I have ever raised. I am hopeful - there are eggs and 1 week old fry. If the eggs survive and hatch, I will start a new thread and post photos of the parents.

Just one glitch as I am going away for a week mid June.

Streamson

[Cincy Ranchu]

Streamson,

You know I leave almost every week for 4 or 5 days, as long as the fish have been eating for a few days they will do OK with some on the tiny microencapsulated foods and a great wife.

[bekko]

Lastly Steve, ever try to get a veil or broadtail on a Red Cap?
No, I play the red caps straight up. I always wanted some broadtail moors but never found a source. However, this year I have been raising a lot of telescopes from two separate lines of butterfly moors and have noticed some of the butterfly tails do not have stiff enough spines so they droop much like a broadtail or veil. We have long since run out of room but are trying to keep some to see what they will do.

-steve

[Veil Gal]

Regarding Sex Ratios in Offspring: Streamson, I saved five youngsters from the fry you sent me last year. Two are proven males, two are proven femaies, one looks like a female but does not participate in spawning activity.

[sc569]

Thanks for the input on the sex ratio, Michelle. I do feel that I am still getting a preponderance of males. Maybe it is something in the way I raise them.

As for feeding, I have been using the fry food from Brine Shrimp Direct. There are different pellet sizes and it really makes a difference. It works well for the youngest fry as long as their is aeration to keep the pellets in suspension. The movement attracts the fry and stimulates their feeding reflex. I think I will get one of those long bubble bars and see if it helps.


Streamson

[terryl]

I am very skeptical about the synthetic estrogen and reverse gender story. When my family closed our goldfish farm in Hong Kong in 1988, no one was practicing it in goldfish trade mainly because of several reasons. First, goldfish is mainly priced for the body shape and size, not for the color. Estrogen usually enhances color (as in discus trade), but may negatively affect the size of the fish and does not have effect on body shape. Second, good goldfish breeding stocks are readily available and it is almost impossible to restrict the access of any breeding stocks. Third, 99.99 percent of the buyers have no interest in breeding. It doesn't make sense to use estrogen just to prevent a few breeders from getting the breeding stocks. In fact, I think most buyers will prefer male fish than female fish (stronger body and less messy in spring time - no eggs). And, more importantly, buyers will find it out eventually and will ruin the breeder's reputation. Reputation is very important as most consumers who buy expensive fish are "old" customers. Finally, high quality goldfish are selling at a price much lower than what they were selling twenty years ago. I don't see the big incentive to use synthetic estrogen in gold fish at all.
I guess the skewed male/female ratio was more likely due to the selection process on which fish to keep and which to let go. It is more like when you are breeding fancy guppies, you only select the most colorful guppies to keep and throw away uncolored guppies when they are young, you will end up 100% male guppies.
I may be wrong as 20 years is a long time and synthetic estrogen may be used extensive now. However, I did not hear such rumor when I stayed in Hong Kong last year.

[afnaveils]

I tend to agree with terryl. We all know that most goldfish varieties don't breed true, even with perfect pairs. I think that in the East, all goldfish farms have their family breeding secrets such that they don't need to sell males and females separately (or produce only males or only females) for us Westerners not to reproduce them. Like the black ranchus for instance, we in the West, have not been able to breed them even close to a black ranchu. Even in TVR, although we can produce some good ranchus, I can't say that we are there yet. We have the ingredients but not the recipes. In the East they know how to mix them, we don't.

In a Breeders' Social a few years ago, I even heard Gunn say that his father-in-law wouldn't disclose even to him the secrets to produce the fine goldfish that he brought for the occasion.

I think that using synthetic estrogen with goldfish would be a lost of time and energy.

Maybe synthetic estrogen are used in producing commercial food fish because males or females may have more flesh or produce more caviar, etc. Sorry, I may really be off here but that's my humble opinion.