Philly veil history

[nolaveils]

Bill Rossback from New York, long gone, was Al Thomma's friend who went down to Anderson's home with Al. I corresponded with him years ago and he wrote to me in the late 70"s regarding their visit:
" May, 1964 Aquarium, page 4-5, this is the man Al Thomma and I got the fish from. We went to his house in Philadelphia in about 1958. We only went to see the fish, did not hope to obtain any. He gave us three pairs, with a promise from us that we would never sell any, only give them to people who would appreciate them. We have never sold any!
I had many years of good spawnings unit I moved out to eastern long island, not not so good. April 62 Aquarium, typical Anderson fish on pqge 192.
Bottom of pqge 195, I have had several of these fish out of each spawn, I now have two, only wih swallow tails, I call them tiger stripes. They are white with red stripes, one of my favorite type of fish. The percentage of good fish is so small with veils, I guess that is probably what makes raising goldfish so interesting."
Bill sent me some eggs that year but none survived the shipping. The next spring he did not rinse whatever cleaner he had been using to clean his pool for the spring and lost all of his fish. This was a loss as I suspect his line was more pure than Al's who always did a fair amount of outcrossing related to his research into color genetics.
Alan Mark Fletcher, Innes's last editor and with whom Anderson bought out Innes after Innes retired, recently told me Anderson kept his fish in a glass enclosed porch, did not really keep a lot of adult fish. Even then Alan said Anderson would cull hundreds of fry in order to come up with a few quality fish for breeding.
Dave

[Ichthius]

Thank you for the history!

Alan Mark Fletcher gave me all his killifish and livebearer journals a few years back.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Dave is working hard on the histroy and linmeage of these fishes, please send this info to blue belly madely on this page:exact:

[Cincy Ranchu]

I ti s great to see you on the page, tell us about the fish of New Orleans, please:exact::exact::me:

[nolaveils]

Dave Schleser of Dallas and I have been goldfish breeding partners since 1977.Over the years we have found when you are working on a linebred line, you really need it in 2 locations. Natural disasters like Katrina or manmade, all your keepers for future breeders you have selected turn out to be all male or female, you really need at least two people to maintain the line.
Our favorite fish is the broadtail moor, second calico veils. Have been much more successful with the moors than the calico veils at the moment. Years ago I was to the point I was getting a good blue body and in a couple of fish every year a red head. Then too many cherry laurel berries fell into the pool and I lost that line, (I have killed off many fish over the years through basic stupidity). The moors will always be a challenge as genetically the better caudal, the poorer the eyes and caudal. Reverse also true, good eyes and color, caudal not as good.
Al Foster sent me some Philly metallics after Katrina which are very nice. This year Dave is crossing an uncolored metallic from the calico line into the Philly metallics to see if we can add more strength to the caudals.
We actually outcross little, get better fish by linebreeding. When we do an outcross, it is always for a very specific reason. Both of us treat all of our veils as outdoor fish, if we loose some in the winter, so be it, wouldn't want to use them as breeders.
New Orleans is tricky. You have winter then a few days later it seems summer arrives so the outdoor spawning season is very short. No basements for fish of course, below sea level. Pools have to be shaded either by screening, trees or lilies.
The longer we linebreed, the less we feel we know. Just when you think you can predict how the next spawn will turn out, the fish throw you a curve!

[nolaveils]

Dave Schleser of Dallas and I have been goldfish breeding partners since 1977.Over the years we have found when you are working on a linebred line, you really need it in 2 locations. Natural disasters like Katrina or manmade, all your keepers for future breeders you have selected turn out to be all male or female, you really need at least two people to maintain the line.
Our favorite fish is the broadtail moor, second calico veils. Have been much more successful with the moors than the calico veils at the moment. Years ago I was to the point I was getting a good blue body and in a couple of fish every year a red head. Then too many cherry laurel berries fell into the pool and I lost that line, (I have killed off many fish over the years through basic stupidity). The moors will always be a challenge as genetically the better caudal, the poorer the eyes and caudal. Reverse also true, good eyes and color, caudal not as good.
Al Foster sent me some Philly metallics after Katrina which are very nice. This year Dave is crossing an uncolored metallic from the calico line into the Philly metallics to see if we can add more strength to the caudals.
We actually outcross little, get better fish by linebreeding. When we do an outcross, it is always for a very specific reason. Both of us treat all of our veils as outdoor fish, if we loose some in the winter, so be it, wouldn't want to use them as breeders.
New Orleans is tricky. You have winter then a few days later it seems summer arrives so the outdoor spawning season is very short. No basements for fish of course, below sea level. Pools have to be shaded either by screening, trees or lilies.
The longer we linebreed, the less we feel we know. Just when you think you can predict how the next spawn will turn out, the fish throw you a curve!

[Ichthius]

I'm thinking of outcrossing a couple males I have from Gary to an American fantail or possibly a nymph. They seem to be the base stock closest to the veils. What do you think?

[William Tricker Inc.]

Al did visit us a lot back in the day, and sometimes would bring us some of his veils...Haven't seen any around here in awhile...although we may have some of his lineage living around here somewhere. We always find goldfish suprizes when we clean out our tanks...I will keep a eye out!:exact:

[George Ludrosky]

I'm thinking of outcrossing a couple males I have from Gary to an American fantail or possibly a nymph. They seem to be the base stock closest to the veils. What do you think?

I have run some spawns with Veils and Broadtails that have turned out really nice.

[nolaveils]

David,
Veil/broadtail to veil/broadtail of course is the best. If you don't have a female veil/broadtail, use a fantail and patience. You may only get a couple of veils out of the spawn though every cross is different and a surprise. Then don't outcross again but breed the veil/broadtail offspring back to the veil parent. We have done this, it works, but may take a couple of generations before the percentage of veils increase. Even veil to veil throws a lot of forked tails in the philly strain. Don't ever use a singletail, body shape is wrong and it will take you too long to reach your goal. And I would pick a fantail with a full heavy lobed tail, less concerned in this case over the length of the caudal.
Dave

[Ichthius]

The single tail is an exceptional nymph. It has a very robust short body like a veil/fantail it's just got a single tail but I wish the veils had a robust body like this.

It's also a play with what you've got kind of thing.

Is Veil dominant to short fin? Can anyone point me to the best description of the veils?

[afertuna]

http://www.americangoldfish.org/new_page_17.htm