Bloodlines and pics you have of your own veils

[afertuna]

There are a few of us trying to gather information on what lines are still around and what the shape of the bodies and fin types there are. This will be a fun and very usefull project that we are doing. It will also help us in defining the Phillie of then and now and if we need to focus on a second american Veil tail standard.

[Veil Gal]

This sounds like a very useful project!:yess:

[afertuna]

I started 3-4 years ago with they Veiltail. I had been looking for a new fish to breed and try to get for showing. I had a phone call from Valerie Burtson (my origional goldfish guru) that she had some of Janet purdums veils that she sent to her for good keeping while she recuperated after a surgery. When I saw them I fell in love with them and took several home. If I knew then what I know now I would have taken more I picked fish by the double anal and squared tail.(most of which became paperweights in the tank or floating decor) These turned out to be the Streamson-Chu/ Foster cross that she was working on. I was very much hooked and I had to find more and then that's when I went to the GFSA website and found Gary. He later sent me Veils and Midnights. I opened the box and that is when the fever took and the madness stepped in LOL! So I guess thank you to Valerie and Gary for the beginning of my veil obsession. Since then I have received more fish from Janet and michelle and Pat and Larry Christianson have lended me their chinese veil stock they got from Gunn. Here are some pics of some of my veils. Mind you I am a beautician not a photographer:badidea: ;)

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[afertuna]

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[BruceP]

Very nice Allen. I hope others post theirs so we can build up a cataloge of what is out there.

[bluebelly]

We have gathered information and pictures and drawings of the veils from Barret to Andersen to Thomma and Rossbach. Joe Lightcap,deceased, has written the lineage of the first philly veil. Thomma 's fish were reduced to one veil when he out crossed to a fantail to save the line. Andersen did something similar. Thomma crossed the veils to blue jay orandas he got from me to create the blue line. We have a lot of parts and pieces but we need your help in tracking the American Philly veil from the 70's forward. If you have veil stock can you write on this site where you got them, from whom, where they went and if you out crossed them. Pictures and drawings would be helpful. Hater [little tsunami] and Foster have been key to saving the line but there may be more info out there we haven't learned yet. Gary, Al F, Dave L, Jim F. Valerie, Carlos P,Bob M, and the rest of the old timers look thru your records and find some good stuff for us.
We also have info on the Philly's introduction to England, this is where John P and his mates can help us . We need info from the GFSA ,AGA, North Coast Gold fish and any other club willing to help.Thank you to the NAVA and Allen

[bluebelly]

Trickers was a favorite hang out for Thomma and often brought veils there, Hey Trickers it is time to check your records and memory . Cindy got a telescope butterfly from me that turned out to be a bluebelly that Thomma borrowed to create the bluebelly veil line. Al also had the Joe Linale line of veils from England. Does any one [Al Foster] know if he mixed the Philly with Linale? I bred an exceptional line of Philly comets from three veil culls Al gave me in the 80's.
Send us all you know

[zph2k]

I got some veiltails in my collection but for some reason they never spawn. May be I have either all males or all females....

[afertuna]

here are some of the pics of the Jan fry

[afertuna]

some more of the breeders
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[Cincy Ranchu]

All,

I got my first veils from Al Foster somewhere in the late 80's. These fish were humpless and round nosed critters and mostly uncolored.Soon after that we got additional fry that were calico and also red and redwhite. These fish were inbred and had veracose veins, fin rot issues, and mucous globs occasionally on the tails. They required really clean systems. Foster gradually fixed this with outcrosses to something? It was a fish without a hump. I will have to search the archives for photos.

Blue Philles:

As I rememeber Thoma crossed a blue jay Oranda to a veil and sent the eggs the Bob Mertlick in Salt Lake City ( Thoma was always shipping eggs in damp mops by US mail). Bob messed around with the fish and saw no blue and was busy with other stuff and sent the fish to Foster. Foster messed around and isolated blue fish from this cross. He also had a blue calico ( it was blue on blue). When Al went to distribution they were about F4 or F5. The fish tended to not breed until 24 months and we had a lot of it's.

When Stever Frowine was in the hobby he worked a trade with the Hong Kong Pagoda for the Blue Phoenix and three of us got six fish each. In turn, Al Foster sent fish to Hong Kong for there exhibit. The initial fish to be shipped got fin rot ( or the edges were eaten away), so he sent them to me instead. A week or so later he shipped fish off to Hong Kong.

The blue phillies spawned on year two and I sold several 2" fish. With the proceeds I bought five Ranchu from Fred Rosenwisc, these fish had frunculosis and I lost all but about 2 dozen fish in my fish room ( this was the time I almost gave up on the hobby). By this time Foster's blues were gone or he was down top a few fish. We decided to do outcrosses to save the line. It was suggested that I use Blue Orandas. I bought some huge blue Orandas from Rick Hess in the late 90's and did about five crosses. All the fish were calico or brown ( no blue and no veils).
I kept track of these fish easily because the brown color was unique.
I am at F4 with these fish and I have 4 blue Veil metallics.

Red Phillys:

The year of 9/11 Foster came to the Breeders Social and gave fish to Parker and I. He has called these his red line. I still have these, they produce massive fish that are quite heathy.


Today:
In,2006 or 2007 Greg Rau and I started breeding and raising these as a joint effort, in 2008 we added Doug Wolf. We now share adults and fry as a means to improve the lines. This year we are focused on tail length and location of peduncle attachment. We have calico fry this year that have black spots in the tails and we are hopeful to get blue fry this year.

Pictures of the history as I see it may be available but will take some effort to produce, maybe next week?

Happy Easter:yess::exact:

[harzan]

I have been looking on line for the pics of the Pagoda in Hong Long that I have seen and one featured the Blue Veils from the US! They made it to the exhibit tanks and several too...just fyi.

If anyone has contacts there, maybe we can trade again?:youtellme::youtellme::youtellme:

[VeiltailGuy]

Harris are these what u are talking bout?

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~leongcy/GF-HK-15.JPG

[VeiltailGuy]

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~leongcy/GF-HK-14.JPG

How big are yours Gary? do they look similar?

[Cincy Ranchu]

Four are thie size < 4" and one is 6 ", pictures someday?:youtellme: wife has other ideas:worship:

[VeiltailGuy]

Use the trusty flip video!

[harzan]

Yes Rick! These are the ones!

You must be looking at a lot of fish on line???!:)

[Cindy]

Trickers was a favorite hang out for Thomma and often brought veils there, Hey Trickers it is time to check your records and memory . Cindy got a telescope butterfly from me that turned out to be a bluebelly that Thomma borrowed to create the bluebelly veil line. Al also had the Joe Linale line of veils from England. Does any one [Al Foster] know if he mixed the Philly with Linale? I bred an exceptional line of Philly comets from three veil culls Al gave me in the 80's.
Send us all you know

Yes, Al Thomma would stop by Tricker's quite often. He would bring in eggs for us to hatch and grow out in the greenhouses.

It was during the middle 80's that we had started working with a variety of Fancy Goldfish. Bluebelly was our BEST supply.

I will have to go back through my notes from that time and make sure I get the info correct. I will post as I collect the information.

[oranda lover3621]

i got a philly veil from DandyOrandas today and she is gorgeous!! she has very little hump and her tail is deeply forked like a ryukin,but longer and flowier.she is chocolate or bronze color and is 5 inches long including tail.her name is Peach.i will post a photo of her soon.

[bigbettadan]

That can't be a Philly Veil. Thats an US line of fish. It could be used in a Veiltail line though..........

Dan

[oranda lover3621]

philly veils are a US line of fish Dan! her dorsal fin is way too big to be a ryukin's and her tail is too long.she looks a little different from regular philly veils because she is from ryukin parents.whoever said forked tails were a bad thing? because they are not.that is how the philly veil pre-1960's looked.i have seen vintage photos and drawings of philly veils pre-1960 and all of them had fork tails.philly veil history goes far beyond Thomma and Foster.that is the beginning of modern veil history.philly veil history really starts with Franklin Barrett at the world's fair in chicago in 1893.some japanese ryukin were imported for sale at the fair but most got sick with fungus and died.Barrett bought and healed at least 6 of these fish and bred them with his telescope eyes back home at Philadelphia and that was the start of the philly veil.because the telescopes and the ryukin had forked tails,all the offspring did as well.these fish soon became the most prized goldfish in the United States.many of the original style philly veils had fork tails and in that day they were the preferred style.the fork tailed philly veils nearly went extinct due to after-effects of world war 2 and the lines only lasted until about 1955.after that time was the Al Thomma/Al Foster veil revival (which,contrary to many people's opinion,did not go exactly as planned,because of the lack of fork tails.) these fish,at the time imperfect,gradually got more popular with the public and today this is the preferred style.that is a complete summary of philly veil history.the old style philly veil are extremely rare today and even more obscure,but they exist.i happen to own one of them.they normally come as "freaks of nature" from ryukin parents at an extremely low rate.they can also come from telescope parents at an even lower rate.i hope this has helped everyone here know the full story of the veiltail.bye for now.i'll just go look at my veil...

[bigbettadan]

I said that phillys were a US developed fish.... Kens fish are from China, thats what I ment. There are other lines of Veils other than phillies though.

But I have never heard anyone claim that Veils should have forked tails. Thats part of being a Veiltail, hopefully having squared off caudal edges.


Dan

[bigbettadan]

http://www.americangoldfish.org/new_page_1.htm

In these old philly standards, they called the fork tailed fish a ribbontail...


Dan

[oranda lover3621]

nowadays the old style philly veil can come from anywhere around the world because ryukins do.they can come from a ryukin pair anywhere.the very first philly veils had forked tails because ryukins do and telescopes do.the squared-off tail was a natural mutation from the Barrett philly veil line.the fork-tails remained more popular however,until the days of Foster and Thomma."ribbontails" are different fish,their dorsals are not as big.ribbontails are also known as long-tailed fantails or humpless ryukin.remember,true veiltails have very large dorsal fins.that is really the only difference from the ribbontail and Barrett philly.

[bigbettadan]

Thats a different fish than what Veil breeders are working on here and the UK.......



Dan

[Cincy Ranchu]

nowadays the old style philly veil can come from anywhere around the world because ryukins do.they can come from a ryukin pair anywhere.the very first philly veils had forked tails because ryukins do and telescopes do.the squared-off tail was a natural mutation from the Barrett philly veil line.the fork-tails remained more popular however,until the days of Foster and Thomma."ribbontails" are different fish,their dorsals are not as big.ribbontails are also known as long-tailed fantails or humpless ryukin.remember,true veiltails have very large dorsal fins.that is really the only difference from the ribbontail and Barrett philly.

Not sure who you are but most of your observations and history are wrong. Mandley has the most correct story with photos and plates and articles. Your spin is bad information, people should erase this version, Mandley has a much better detailed story, Philadelphia Veils are not of the same origin as Chinese Veils and for the most part do not include Ryukins.:badidea::exact:

[oranda lover3621]

they USED to include ryukins,they do not anymore.maybe the "ryukins" were japanese fringetails.most sources say ryukins though.they are not of the same origin as chinese veils and i never said they were.old style philly veils were the same thing as humpless ryukins with longer fins.fringetails/ribbontails/whatever have shorter dorsals than veiltail.i cannot really explain why the few that exist now came from ryukin parents,but i have researched this subject deeply and this is what i can come up with.the only way i know they come from ryukin parents is from personal experience (i have a lot of it).if ryukin can come from china than so can philly veils.it's odd,i know.even i don't understand it fully.they are just accidents of nature.the story above is a combination of all the versions of the story i have heard on the subject,maybe a few are false.but i have no way of knowing which ones are true except traveling back in time to 1893.and that is impossible.the fish is what she is,and i don't really know why.

[bigbettadan]

Ok, wait a second.... Didn't philly veils get originally cultivated in Philly? Otherwise why not call them that?:youtellme:

[afertuna]

Dave Mandley and a couple others of us have been putting the history together about the Phillie veils history and developement.This will correct alot of the missinformation out there. This will hopefully come out soon. The fringe tail and veil are different please refer to the Philidelphia standards in the section I added for Veil standards Gfsa,AGA, and Phillidelphia standards. Here in the USA and in England we have standards for the Phillie Breed. A Ryukin type of fork in the tail is a fault in the breed. Although a fork that is 75% down the tail to a squared off is acceptible but not prefered and will loose points in the end. This Veil attatchment has been used from the Philidelphia group that later became the GFSA (correct me if I am wrong Gary or Dave)and has been used for many years as a model to achieve.554

[oranda lover3621]

my fish looks just like that one! that is the fish i have been comparing my veils to.i had another one (calico,8") that passed away at 8 1/2 yrs. old a month ago.she was beautiful.i had her for 2+ years,she was 6 yrs. old when i found her.she looked a lot like the one in the above photo,except for color.i got a new one yesterday and they look almost exactly alike except this one is bronze.the one in your picture does have a fork tail,about 40% down.my fish's fork is a bit bigger but comparable.Cincy-some of it probably is wrong,as the origin of veiltails remains one of the goldfish hobby's greatest unsolved mysteries.i will admit that much.but parts of it are probably true,as i took the above story from many different people's opinions on how it happened,and condensed them into one,using the most believable ideas.maybe veiltails never did include ryukins,but that is the most popular theory.Dan-of course they were originally cultivated in Philly!!! the "ryukins" (it may have been the telescopes at the world's fair and the ryukins/fringetails at Barrett's home in Philly) were taken home by Barrett to Philly before he bred them.so there you have it.and no pictures of Peach,hard-heads!!!

[afertuna]

I dont want to keep this going on we will have the history which isnt a mistery. There are breeding journals and lots of information that has been put together that will clear this misinformation bout the Veils. The pic that I posted here when you look closer you will see there has No fork in it just a fold where the tail isnt fully extended and you can see the squared off tail behind showing thru the tail behind it.

Lets please get back to the discussion at hand about what lines people have and pics ect. :exact:
Thank You

[nolaveils]

Correct, there is no mystery re. origins of philly veil. It has been completely documented in GFSA bulletins, both its history on this side of the pond and in the UK, which has done a much better job of keeping the line intact than we have. I have sent a lot of this info on to Mandley. Originally per the picture in Wolf's book, the fish were ribbontails/fringetails with a fork and high dorsal. As I have earlier mentioned, the fork was taken out of the tail when the picture was later reproduced in Innes's later volumes, (Innes and his father handset the original Wolf book in 1908, then later bought the rights to the book forming the basis for Innes's books). Re. the square tail, I believe Bourcey Beckley once said oranges do not grow from lemon trees, ugh. Anyway, the only fish around in the early part of the century with square tails were pearlscales so they probably had a part in the process. Seems both types, square and forked were kept. I have an article from Alan Fletcher, last editor of The Aquarium Magazine, re. Anderson's shipment of philly moors to Churchill, fins were forked. And in Aquatic Life ads in the 20's and 30's, it appears the telescope version was the most valued.
The British do a great job in breeding for the nuances of the veil. A ryukin does not make a philly veil, a ryukin with a poor back is not a philly veil. The Bristol Society had a good website which has pictures of both philly origin veils and chinese origins.
And as much as I love history, we shouldn't get too wrapped up in epast details. Breeding these fish today to old philly standards is hard enough on its own, we need to share fish and experiences to succeed. This is a very difficult strain to maintain.
One last bit of trivia, I've never bought into the often published theory that the reason for the near disappearance of the veils in the 30's was the drip water system. That theory ignores the elephant in the room, tropicals were introduced and became increasingly popular.

[nolaveils]

Correct, there is no mystery re. origins of philly veil. It has been completely documented in GFSA bulletins, both its history on this side of the pond and in the UK, which has done a much better job of keeping the line intact than we have. I have sent a lot of this info on to Mandley. Originally per the picture in Wolf's book, the fish were ribbontails/fringetails with a fork and high dorsal. As I have earlier mentioned, the fork was taken out of the tail when the picture was later reproduced in Innes's later volumes, (Innes and his father handset the original Wolf book in 1908, then later bought the rights to the book forming the basis for Innes's books). Re. the square tail, I believe Bourcey Beckley once said oranges do not grow from lemon trees, ugh. Anyway, the only fish around in the early part of the century with square tails were pearlscales so they probably had a part in the process. Seems both types, square and forked were kept. I have an article from Alan Fletcher, last editor of The Aquarium Magazine, re. Anderson's shipment of philly moors to Churchill, fins were forked. And in Aquatic Life ads in the 20's and 30's, it appears the telescope version was the most valued.
The British do a great job in breeding for the nuances of the veil. A ryukin does not make a philly veil, a ryukin with a poor back is not a philly veil. The Bristol Society had a good website which has pictures of both philly origin veils and chinese origins.
And as much as I love history, we shouldn't get too wrapped up in epast details. Breeding these fish today to old philly standards is hard enough on its own, we need to share fish and experiences to succeed. This is a very difficult strain to maintain.
One last bit of trivia, I've never bought into the often published theory that the reason for the near disappearance of the veils in the 30's was the drip water system. That theory ignores the elephant in the room, tropicals were introduced and became increasingly popular.

[afertuna]

Thnk you for sending the info to Mandley we were looking for the articles.
Allen

[afertuna]

How was everyones year so far with the fry??

[nolaveils]

Broadtail/veil moors so far.

[java fern]

Hello ,

>>>>>>>>them into one,using the most believable ideas.maybe veiltails never did include ryukins,but that is the most popular theory.Dan-of course they were originally cultivated in Philly!!! the "ryukins" (it may have been the telescopes at the world's fair and the ryukins/fringetails at Barrett's home in Philly) were taken home by Barrett to Philly before he bred them.so there you have it.and no pictures of Peach,hard-heads!!!<<<<<<<<<<

Some of the information I have read stated that the fish Mr. Barrett took home did not come from the Worlds Fair at all but from the Wisconsin fish commission or some similar sounding state body. The fish at the Worlds Fair were all preserved specimens for display (or had died and were perserved for display) . The fish commission received a shippment about the same time ( from the same source ?) and seem to have been in bad physical shape after shippment . Mr. Barrett ( was given ? Purchased ?) some of these fish , which were taken back to Philly . The legendary "Worlds Fair fish " whos image is on the face of the Innes book in gold was a white fish (some call silver) was one of the few to survive shipment .

java fern