Improving water hardness and raise pH?

[bichly]

I have a 20 gallon tank with one goldfish that is currently recovering from a bout of anchorworms. I can't seem to raise the pH above 6.2 despite putting in all this "Neutral Regulator" powder. I just checked my water hardness and it reads 25ppm, so that is pretty low. I read that water hardness will determine stability of the pH. Any suggestions for products? I've read about crushed corals but don't know how to introduce it.

[Corrie]

Hi bichly, I have a feeling that all you need to raise is your carbonate hardness, not total hardness.
You can do that with just Arm and Hammer baking soda, I would start with a 1/2 tsp. Too much baking soda at one time can raise your pH too fast.
Use very small amounts at first, write down how much you use each time, and test your pH and hardness after each has had time to completely dissolve.

If you really want to raise your total hardness, you'll just need epsom salt and calcium chloride.

I don't like using crushed coral, etc. It's too hard to adjust your water change.

Corrie

[bichly]

Thanks Corrie! What's the time period in between the baking soda? Are we talking about add some then recheck in 1/2hr, or add some and recheck in a few days?

[Corrie]

'bout 30 minutes.

I've been known to be in a hurry, use my hand to stir it up real good in the tank, and test right then. ;)

Don't raise pH too fast, that's your main concern.

Once your pH stabilizes, add a little more baking soda as a 'buffer'.
Then test again the next day. If the pH goes down again, start over.
Keep adding baking soda, a little, until you get it where you want it.
Baking soda should stabilize around 8-8.2pH.

Write it down, so you know how much to put in your change water.

You can get a good pH pen on the internet for about $10-15, it's a lot easier than a test kit.

[Ichthius]

Here is the sodium bicarbonate calculator from www.thegab.org. It's a great site. http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

[marlin08]

Here is the sodium bicarbonate calculator from www.thegab.org. It's a great site. http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

For some reason, the baking soda calculator link says "not found"....

[Ichthius]

Sorry, Just double checked it and it works for me.

Try going to www.thegab.org. The link to the calculator is in the right hand column down at the bottom.

[marlin08]

Maybe it's my browser. I tried also to go to the gab site and click on it there on the side. The Gab website comes up but when I click on Baking soda calculator I get this message
The requested URL /misc/aquarium/calKH.asp was not found on this server.
I'll google it, maybe someone else has posted it somewhere from the Gab.
Thanks for trying, good information !

[bekko]

What's the pH out of the tap ??

-steve

[bichly]

pH of tap water is 6.2, i guess the same as the tank's - go figure.

[bekko]

Ideally, you would add buffer to the water before putting it in the tank so the pH does not fall and then jump back up again every time there is a water change.

-steve

[small_ranchu]

I am facing the same issue since NYC water is very soft. Here is what I am doing for more than two years. For my method you need to know how much Baking Soda you wan to put in. For me I need 5 teaspoons of BS for my 90 gallon tank (I always do 90-100% waterchange). For 100% wc, it is easy since the fish are not in the system anymore.
For 90% wc, I don't take the fish out. Prior to the water change, I put BS into the jar and mix it with water. When I put the new water back to the tank, I pour the BS solution slowly.

[suphi]

Crushed coral might be a better long-term solution if you don't want to keep adding baking soda with every WC...this would've driven me nuts since I do daily WC.

This (crushed coral) is what a friend of mine, who also lives in NYC, does. His tap water pH is typically in the mid 6's and he gets to 6.9-7.0 with it. I have no idea about dosing/amount, though.

[small_ranchu]

There is one issue with crash coral when you do large water change. Crash coral doesn't raise the level of ph immediate while they are in the filter box and filter are off during water change.
You have 7.9 PH in your old water and all the crash coral are in the filter. When you put the new water in, Ph wll be 6.9 until you turn on the filter and dissolving processing started.

As a result, I use both.

[suphi]

True, with crushed coral large water change will be a problem. This still could be done through water storage, with crushed coral inside. I wonder why NYC water is so acidic.

[bekko]

I wonder why NYC water is so acidic.
It is partly the geology, partly the fact that much of the drinking water is from reservoirs which are fed from forest floors, partly because of acid rain, and partly because the city adds phosphoric acid to the water.

The phosphoric acid causes a protective film to develop on the inside of metal pipes (a type of corrosion). This film prevents metal ions, particularly lead, copper and zinc, from being released into the water as it enters the home.

-steve

[marlin08]

I have soft east coast water as well, but my problem is not with the initial PH, that's perfect, usually right at 7.4. Within a few days, though, it's falling well below 7 if I don't have a buffer.
I took Steve's/Bekko's suggestion on a thread some months back and bought some Aragonite. I put it in my filters (in a mesh bag). Thus far, it is doing the trick.

[Ichthius]

Aragonite (caribsea crushed coral or oolitic aragonite) is the best buffer out there.

It's really all you need and it's so soluble that it gets your water into shape very quickly. It increases your pH/kH/GH.

You can fluidize the sand or put the gravel in a box filter or media basket:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ytss_MN91I8

There is a very small amount of water moving through this bed and it keeps 3,000 gallons well buffered.

[bichly]

Wow, these have all been so helpful. I'm going to order some of the Aragonite crushed coral and start with that before I try to raise the pH. I think one good thing is although the pH is so low, it's stably low for now. I don't want to start changing it until i get a buffer in there to keep it elevated. Yes, NYC water is way to soft.

On another note, for those who were commenting on my thread last month about my anchorworm issues, I'm glad to report that a few drops of the Proform LA caused the last anchorworm to "fall off" in a matter of 36-48hrs. I still think manually removing these parasites helped significantly to keep the worm burden as low as possible before help arrived. THANK YOU for all your suggestions! :worship:

[orandablue]

I got into a salt tank. First one. Started doing PH tests. Long story short my goldfish tanks are like acid baths! low 7. 6.6 PH Tried crushed coral tore it all out recently because of suspected carrier of parasites and detrius crap. Tried Baking soda (what a headache gave up long ago, dumped some in after my recent tests bounced too high ugh) SO Argonite is the new trick! O.K. My normal PH is 7.00 goes down in goldie tanks. How much "buffering" does argonite do? Does it take it above neutral? Like up in the 8s? Just wondering. I am going to try it. Not sure if I can do liquid!? But maybe. Why is argonite so good?? How much do i need in say a 40-50 gallon tank? thanks J

[Ichthius]

Calcium carbonate has many forms but generally fall into calcites and aragonites. Aragonite is the most soluble form of Calcium carbonate which is formed in several ways. The one most useful for pH, kH and GH maintenance is oolitic aragonite which has precipitated out of pristine tropical seas when the pH is very high due to photosynthesis. As the pH increases calcium solubility decreases causing a very clean and soluble mineral to form litte spherical egg shaped granules called oolites. This material start dissolving at 8.2 and increase with lower pH, salinity and temperature. Calcites are generally much less soluble and usually start dissolving at 7.2 pH. Dolomite is ½ calcium and ½ magnesium but is highly insoluble.

Oyster shell is primarily calcite, the significantly less soluble form of Calcium carbonate than aragonite. There is some aragonite in oyster shell but it is much less soluble due to the complex organic molecules such as conchiolin, perlucin and other proteins and polysaccharides that form layers of organics and calcium as the shell is formed. Oysters grow in nutrient rich waters and this is transferred to the shell. Oyster shells may not cause an out break of algae in a pond with the complex nutrient rich ecology but in a reef aquarium using oyster shells as a calcium reactor media will lead to outbreaks of diatoms and other pest algae. This is due to the organic material in the shell and the nutrient rich environments that they grow in.

“The oyster creates its own environment by secreting a shell composed or ninety-five percent (95%) of calcium carbonate. The remainder of the shell is made up of organic material and trace amounts of manganese, iron, aluminum, sulfate and magnesium.” http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/un ... .02.x.html

Aragonite is 2x times more soluble in seawater at 25C than calcite. Calcite is most soluble in salty high pH warm water but is still out competed by aragonite. Aragonite is just the opposite and is most soluble in freshwater, lower pH and temperature which makes it ideal for maintaining water quality.
Morse J.W., Mucci A., Millero F.J.
The solubility of calcite and aragonite in seawater of 35%. salinity at 25C and atmospheric pressure (1980) Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta, 44 (1), pp. 85-94.

6. This demonstrates that the solubility of aragonite is greater in a solution with little or no other salt than in a solution well supplied with other salts, and that it is greater in a cold than in a warm solution. Calcite is exactly the reverse.
Bulletin of the Geological Society of America, Volume 25 P751

The best form of aragonite to use is oolitic which has precipitated out in tropical seas (the bahamas) so it is very soluble and has some trace minerals in it. Oolitic aragonite is round and fluidizes with very little flow. My video show the reactor only expanded about 10% of the static bed so even though it's moving around a lot it just a small amount of flow. You can run reactors up to 100% of static bed height. Though it is more expensive (about a buck a pound) it is clean, works quickly and dissolves cleanly. Because it is 2x as soluble or more than calcites a much smaller amount can have the desired effect on the water quality parameters and over a much shorter time. It is a great substrate for the fish too. If you put it in as a sand your pH will always be 8.2 and your kH and GH will be very high.

The Caribsea Crushed Coral which is just mined aragonite the size of typical aquarium gravel. It can be put in box filters or media baskets. It works just as well as the oolitic sand but does not have the same self cleaning dynamics of a fluidized bed. So the gravel can trap some detritus but that is easily resolved by cleaning.

Goldfish are often listed as having a GH requirement with a low end of 5 dGH. In most scale this is considered soft but some considerate it moderate. We all know goldfish can survive and even thrive on water with 0 GH provide the pH doesn't crash the nitrogen cycle. If Goldfish were not adapted to soft water most garden ponds in the Northwest which usually have a <6 pH and 0 GH or KH would not have reproducing populations. There are even wild populations in very pure high elevation lakes.

In Fish Medicine by Michael K. Stoskopf he discusses that many fish can handle a wide variety of hardnesses but it is the lack of calcium ions that increases ammonia toxisity most likely by reducing plasma sodium efflux at the gills. The causes osmoregulatory stress on fish in soft water with high levels of ammonia. So if we have soft water that is poorly buffered, the pH drops below 7, the nitrogen cycle shuts down, ammonia builds and the fish do poorly. Aragonite fixes these issues by keeping your pH, kH and GH up. He goes on further discussing that the Calcium ions are also protective to the gills by reducing copper and zinc toxicity by competing with the metals for branchial adsorption sites, decreasing the metal uptake. Magnesium helps with this to but necessary magnesium and potassium levels can be maintained through food.

I maintain a 340 gallon Tanganyikan community tank with 4 to 6 species of fully reproducing populations of cichlids. At one end of the tank I have the smallest cichlid Neolamprologus multifasciatus breeding within the same two square feet as one of the largest cichlids in the lake if not the world Oreochromis tanganicae. They have a substrate of aragonite and beach sand. I do large water changes without adding any salts and they do very well. I’m on the 4th or 5th generation on the multifasciatus. There are few fish we keep with more stringent hard water requirements as wild Tanganyikan cichlids and mine thrive with just aragonite.

As with everything your milage may vary but aragonite is a simple way to keep things simple especially for those with soft water or limited understanding of water quality parameters. If you feel you mush add a bunch of salts there are several commercial additives such as equilibrium or even simply instant ocean if your system can handle a little good old sodium chloride.

[TheTruth]

I have a 20 gallon tank with one goldfish that is currently recovering from a bout of anchorworms. I can't seem to raise the pH above 6.2 despite putting in all this "Neutral Regulator" powder. I just checked my water hardness and it reads 25ppm, so that is pretty low. I read that water hardness will determine stability of the pH. Any suggestions for products? I've read about crushed corals but don't know how to introduce it.

after 30 plus yrs of keeping goldfish i pay no attention to water hardness ph etc i just make weekly water changes goldfish are very adaptable.water in new york city is very different from water in upstate ny yet the fish do well in both places

[orandablue]

should see what i did to my saltwater tank with baking soda! lolI was ignoring ph too then thought about it again recently after checking the salt PH. Been trying to figure out why my fry have curled gill ~~
~mostly just worried the ph might be affecting my fry~

[sanggarra]

I read thru the whole thread.

Can you put aragonite in a filter baggies and into your power filter box? How much does one need? Is this another of the "try it in your setup to find out" thing? :))

[sanggarra]

So anyone know how much aragonite I should put into my power filter to provide enough buffer for my 44 gallon tank?

[kendal]

i don't believe you cannot put in too much. pH will balance and then the reaction stops. if the pH drops through a water change or heavy organics, the reaction starts back up and pH rebalances.

[sanggarra]

Thanks, kendal.

From what I gather one can put crushed coral into the power filter box to buffer pH.

But the question is what the least amount I need to put into my power filter box to effective buffer my 44 gal tank? :)

[Ichthius]

But the question is what the least amount I need to put into my power filter box to effective buffer my 44 gal tank? :)

Slightly less than more than enough. It all depends on your stocking density and feeding rate.

Get a KH/pH test kit and do the work.

Actual Crushed coral is calcite and will not dissolve till about 7.2. Make sure you get Caribsea crushed coral which is aragonite.

[kendal]

Thanks, kendal.

From what I gather one can put crushed coral into the power filter box to buffer pH.

But the question is what the least amount I need to put into my power filter box to effective buffer my 44 gal tank? :)

follow ichthius' advice, he knows far more than I;)

the coral, sand or whatever form it is will act as substrate for biological filtration. don't worry too much about the minimum. the more you put the more surface for nitrifying bacteria and the faster your pH balances. the more you have the more benefit you get. if it were me, i would put as much as will fit and still get good flow. i am a big fan of filtering as much as possible.

but what do i know. my water is so hard here that one has to be careful when drinking so as not to chip teeth when chewing the water. even our rainwater is hard and alkaline thanks to the dust from the Bonneville Salt Flats.

tap water here:
Calcium ur-ppm 31.3
Hardness as CaCO3 ur-ppm 297
Hardness grains/gallon calc. 17.3
Hardness Non-Carbonate calc. 101.0
Alkalinity as CaCo3 ur-ppm 196

this, Ichthius, is why not only are my hydrangeas not blue, they are dead. i collect buckets of coffee grounds from work and can't keep a blueberry alive for more than 2 year. salt Lake City would be great for growing figs, if only figs grew here:( however my goldfish all have very strong white teeth;)

[lexi21]

Here is the sodium bicarbonate calculator from www.thegab.org. It's a great site. http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

thanks for the link, it work but I am not familiar yet to use it
http://freeimagestocks.com/content/20/grey.png