my first 2 ranchu's

[nikond70s]

i got my first 2 ranchu's ever. not knowing quality, shapes etc...i just bought them because they looked really nice to me. below i have 2 pics of them. these are not my pics but the person who i bought it from. but those are my fishes now. based on these 2 pics can you guys tell me if these are good quality ranchu's? ill get pics of them in water in a few days. thanks

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/purple_ek/ranchu334.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/purple_ek/ranch56.jpg

[bigbettadan]

Those are not ranchus......... Those are chinese lionchus. Note the short head and headrowth type, and the pinched tail.....
Sorry
Dan

[nikond70s]

Those are not ranchus......... Those are chinese lionchus. Note the short head and headrowth type, and the pinched tail.....
Sorry
Dan

thanks dan, kinda figured they were different but wasnt so sure. for lionchu's are these good quality? thanks

[small_ranchu]

To judge lionchu, we need to see side view picture. :)

[nikond70s]

To judge lionchu, we need to see side view picture. :)

thanks, ill get some sideview pics soon

[small_ranchu]

welcome to GFK.... :)

[Ranchumaniax]

These are good quality one....Just make comparison!

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Mixed%20Lionchu/05.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Mixed%20Lionchu/P2160235.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Mixed%20Lionchu/03.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Mixed%20Lionchu/04.jpg

[Hondataeg6]

These are good quality one....Just make comparison!

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Mixed%20Lionchu/05.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Mixed%20Lionchu/P2160235.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Mixed%20Lionchu/03.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Mixed%20Lionchu/04.jpg

I like the last two, Paul do you sell any lionchus?

[Ranchumaniax]

Coming in on next Shipment. These are the actual fish that coming in.
Contact me if you interesting. And by the way, the last 2 fish that you like are sold!


Opp...Sorry fred! i didn't try to sale a fish here.....

[Jed]

My heart is skipping beats here! TVR, SVR, TRV, SVR, TVR, SVR, I'm torn guys.

[small_ranchu]

Coming in on next Shipment. These are the actual fish that coming in.
Contact me if you interesting. And by the way, the last 2 fish that you like are sold!


Opp...Sorry fred! i didn't try to sale a fish here.....


Here we go again.... :confuse:

[johnatoranchu]

My heart is skipping beats here! TVR, SVR, TRV, SVR, TVR, SVR, I'm torn guys.

If you think you'll develop into a serious Ranchu person, think TVR; they're REAL Ranchu. If you want them to decorate an aquarium, think SVR. SVR, that is good SVR, are still cheaper than TVR and look better in an aquarium than TVR.
John

[bigbettadan]

I agree with John, if you want something to enjoy in a home aquarium, just go SVR. If you want to get into serious breeding/exhibtion, get real japanese ranchu..

Dan

[BruceP]

Congrats on your new fish. They should give you many years of enjoyment. These would be shown under the AGA rules as Side View Ranchu or Lionchu/Lionhead. Only recently have Top View Ranchu been recognized as a separate class and I think there is still some 'discussion' as to what to call the side view appreciated fish.
But anyway, yours are very nice, enjoy . :)

[Ranchu Rancher]

Dan and John: I will speak only for myself but I am going to guess there are others. That are tired of you putting down SVR. I take offense to both of your statements . SVR are real Ranchus and I take great pride in my fish. First off I am serious about breeding my fish. Second you talk about exhibitions at every show I have been too TVR are out numbered 10 to 1 by SVR. Last but not least as we all know Ranchus were developed in China not Japan, so I'm not sure where you come off with the statement "get real japanese Ranchu." I think it is great that you have such a passion for TVR, but how about backing off a little on the negative comments on SVR.

Gregg

[bigbettadan]

Good for you. Let some Koi collector tell you what good ranchu are, I will go with the Japanese masters...... No, I will not back down. There is a reason "SVR" are much less costy....... You can raise whatever in hades you want, and shout to heaven they are good "ranchu"...... But people like me will be there to shout back.

Dan

[johnatoranchu]

Dan and John: I will speak only for myself but I am going to guess there are others. That are tired of you putting down SVR. I take offense to both of your statements . SVR are real Ranchus and I take great pride in my fish. First off I am serious about breeding my fish. Second you talk about exhibitions at every show I have been too TVR are out numbered 10 to 1 by SVR. Last but not least as we all know Ranchus were developed in China not Japan, so I'm not sure where you come off with the statement "get real japanese Ranchu." I think it is great that you have such a passion for TVR, but how about backing off a little on the negative comments on SVR.

Gregg

Gregg, you are totally wrong. Ranchu were developed by the Japanese not the Chinese. Chinese Ranchu, both SVR and TVR, have arrived on the scene relatively recently, certainly within the last 30-40 years; prior to that the Chinese produced the Lionhead which was noted for its huge "all round" hood, longish body and loose "tassle" tail. Ranchu, that is TVR, are without any doubt the most popular variety of goldfish among serious Goldfish hobbyists in the world with specialist societies and shows throughout the world including, to my knowledge, Japan, Singapore, Thailand, England, Belgium, Malaysia and soon to be America. "SVR" is a commercial slant on the TVR as they are easier to produce than TVR and are more suited to aquariums than TVR; hence their commercial development in a range of colours. I suspect that the only fish shows you have been to are in America where the fish are shown in aquariums and, at least at the two American shows I have attended, vendors were there to sell fish to exhibitors which the exhibitors could enter into the show immediately. The vendors' tanks were filled in the main with SVR, Ryukin and Orandas plus a few other varieties but I did not see a single TVR. In Engish shows over 80% of all the goldfish exhibited will have been bred by the Exhibitor whereas from what I have seen and from what your countrymen tell me, the vast majority of exhibits in American shows would have been purchased - Americans who breed and show their own lines of goldfish are very rare animals indeed.
The terms SVR and TVR have been popularised and fostered by "the Internet" and although I have been very seriously involved with Goldfish since 1970 and with Ranchu since 1979, it was not until my first "goldfishing" trip to the United States in 2001 that I heard the terms SVR and TVR.
I for one am not anti SVR. They are produced to decorate aquariums and indeed look very much better in an aquarium than TVR as from the side the TVR's tail can look quite strange but the stark truth is that the SVR is held in little regard by serious Ranchu hobbyists. I have met simply dozens of people throughout the world who are Ranchu (TVR) fanatics; I have only met one hobbyist who shows the same involvement with SVR - he lives in New York! Perhaps you will become the second one? As far as I know there are no specialist SVR societies or shows - perhaps the time is right for you to start one.
John

[bigbettadan]

John said what I wanted to say in a much better and more polite manner.... I regret the manner in which I posted, in anger, for that I am sorry...

Dan

[Ranchu Rancher]

John your are correct the Japanese took the Chinese Lionhead and developed the TVR. My problem with your statement is that you can only be a serious breeder if you breed TVR. So to that I say you are wrong. Anyone who takes the time to learn all they can about a specific breed and then works at improving that breed should be taken seriously. I thought this forum was for people to learn about careing for all fish not just TVR.

Gregg

[BruceP]

Gregg........ I applaud you for speaking up. Everything you have said I agree with. I just don't have the way to put it into words like you do. I too am tired of being put down for not jumping on the TVR band wagon. I think that a few outspoken fanatics have made this a less enjoyable website than it could be.

[Cincy Ranchu]

The TVR drone and dribble from Dan and John is quickly becoming "elitest and anti anything but pedigreed Japanese fish of japanese lineage, blah, blah blah!

You two should take a break, your too hostile for the majority of the members and the constant J-TVR dribble is just boring. Keep it up and the ARS will have 2 members, you both suck and do not promote the hobby!

:yess::exact:

[small_ranchu]

We are still not sure OP's fish is lionhead, lionchu aka SVR. The vendor called it ranchu and sell them with the top view pic of fish out of water. That's why I requested the side view picture. At this point we cannot say anything about fish yet. Without looking at the actual profile we shouldn't pass any judgement on the fish. We really want to post a good judgement in this Judging section for learning purpose.


In this thread, I don't see John and Dan post something bad about SVR.

[nikond70s]

my bro has my camera so at the moment i cannot take side view pics of them in the tank swimming. however here are 2 pics of the person who i bought them from. these are his pics but not mine.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/purple_ek/DSC05448.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/purple_ek/DSC05475.jpg

[small_ranchu]

It looks like a decent lionchu from this angle. Let's see more detail after you get your camera back.

[bekko]

Nice ones. Is that infection starting behind the left gill on the first one ??

-steve

[suphi]

Steve, I was wondering the same. There appears to be scale loss in that area and another one slightly below it. Tail fins are also a tad ragged. Make sure you at least treat for flukes.

They look pretty decent as Chinese ranchu to me. Your fish have thick peduncles and relatively long body, should be good swimmers.

[billys]

Nice fish enjoy them Billy.

Can I just say that John’s posts are very informative and factual and I can’t see how they are being perceived as critical. I don’t post here a great deal but really appreciate when very experienced goldfish keepers share their knowledge, which by the way is not the behaviour of someone who is elitist.

[Jed]

OMG! What on earth happened here!!! I wanted to try a few TVR, but I'm not sure if I can really enjoy the true beauty of them because I do have a 220 show tank in my game room. I have ALWAYS loved my SVR, thanks to Rick Hess. However, it seems that this site is turning into a TVR site, and a few members I know, have lost interest in it and decided not to visit the site anymore. With that being said, I will continue to enjoy my SVR and see what happens in the spring.

[harzan]

very nice fish....congrats! and welcome to the ranchu itch...top or side...both are very beautiful!

[marlin08]

Nice fish - very solid and pleasing to the eye, I know you must be very proud of them !

[suphi]

OMG! What on earth happened here!!! I wanted to try a few TVR, but I'm not sure if I can really enjoy the true beauty of them because I do have a 220 show tank in my game room. I have ALWAYS loved my SVR, thanks to Rick Hess. However, it seems that this site is turning into a TVR site, and a few members I know, have lost interest in it and decided not to visit the site anymore. With that being said, I will continue to enjoy my SVR and see what happens in the spring.

Jed, I think out of several hundred members here only about ten or so keep TVR. While it's true that some of the prominent or active members do favor TVR over other types, I doubt very much that the entire site will head that way.

[terryl]

They are beautiful goldfish. Yes, the scale behind the gill is a little bit concern. I think keep the temperature in upper 70s and low 80s and adding salt will help.

We are here to share our love and wisdom of keeping goldfish. Goldfish is a much more than just TVR. I hate to see people applying the so called "standard" to every egg shape fish they see here. For me, as long as the fish are health and nice looking, it is a good goldfish. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and very few of us send fish to competition. I would prefer spending my time and efforts helping other people appreciate the subtle beauty of goldfish and the joy of breeding and raising healthy goldfish, rather than talking and chasing the "standard" and make people feel inferior by not able to sink hundreds of dollars to on those expensive Japanese fish. In Asian countries, goldfish keeping is a hobby for common folks, not the privilege of the social elites.

In an old Chinese saying "Black cat, white cat: whatever catches the mouse is a good cat" (which made famous by Dang Xiaopeng).

Terry

[small_ranchu]

The objective of this portion of forum is for somebody who want to learn the standard of goldfish. When a user want to understand the quality of his fish, we shouldn't just ignore the request by sugar-coated words. We have responsibility to give the person real information. We need to keep the standard.

In the mean time, we are not encouraging people to spend hundreds of dollars on TVR. If you ask around here(you can PM me), you can get TVR for less than $50(you will have to pay shipping though).

If you simply want to share pictures of your fish, we have another part of forum called "Picture section" and "Video Section". Nobody should judge the fish in that section.

Hope everybody enjoy learning the art of goldfish.

[nikond70s]

thank you everyone for the response. good or bad i appreciate the honest opinion. the scale behind the gill isnt a problem i believe. i had the fish for about 3 weeks now and all is normal. honestly without you guys telling me i would of never figured it out. im a rookie and still learning. either these fish are good quality or not it doesnt matter as long as there healthy. after all beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. and everyone has there own taste. also its these 2 fish that got me into goldfish keeping. so if they are bad quality im happy i bought them. again thanks everyone i really appreciate it and im happy to be part of this awesome forum.

[Jed]

Well, I will be here regardless! :exact:

[bigbettadan]

Is this not the goldfish "judging" section? How do you judge without standards?

It would be a sad day when this site becomes a "my pet goldfish" site, like so many others. What holds back the US goldfish hobby compared to the other countries is lack of serious hobbyist breeders..... Too many seem content with a buy and show mentality. To me, that is truly a waste.

Dan

[bigbettadan]

Also, where did this "ranchu only" stuff come from..... I love lots of goldfish breeds, and keep more than ranchu. So does John. Painting a broad brush is dangerous.

The reason I am more vocal when it comes to ranchu is due to understanding of the breed here in the states... As has been stated before, I think alot of misunderstanding comes from terminalogy. If here in the states we called them lionchu or japanese lionhead.... we would avoid alot of this. When someone asks my opinion on a ranchu, I give it. If I see a ranchu with a weak/narrow tail, thin peduncle, too short of body/head, and other conformation problems leading to swimming problems, I will say so. But that is by ranchu guidelines.

Dan

[Mikey V]

Just my two cents: (forgive me car enthusiasts)
Americans/western europeans more or less invented the car. Asian companies began to develop their own models, and created a far more economical model. American car makers/enthusiasts have a different view of what a "real" car looks like, and will defend their positions vigorously- Ford v BMW v Toyota - Mustang/Camaro v 3 Series v Skyline -etc..
My point is, once you create something that is used publicly, the very nature of society robs you of your chance to control its development. Just because a development (not evolution) happens, does not make your original necessarily inferior. In the same token, it is egotistical, and kind of wrong to frown on anything that isn't your original just because you resent the fact that you yourself wouldn't have taken it that direction.

[bigbettadan]

I don't see the parallel here.......

Other than a challenge..... I will bring my Mustang GT...... name the place..LOL

Dan

[small_ranchu]

Dan,
I think it already happend in commercial sector of fish. I meant in Asia market.

[bekko]

Everyone here (except Dan) recognizes that in English the word 'ranchu' has a double meaning. For at least 95% of English-speaking goldfish enthusiasts, 'ranchu' means the Chinese style SVR. TVR fanatics are not likely to change that, not matter how hard they try. We've been round-and-round about that before. If you are speaking Japanese then 'ranchu' is less ambiguous. 'Ranchu' is probably less ambiguous if you are speaking Chinese too.

AGS tried to deal with this issue in their most recent version of the standards, but I think their intent would have been more clear if they had simply acknowledged that TVR and SVR are completely different varieties. My two cents were ignored in this respect. If there were pedigrees for such things, we would probably find that SVR and lionhead are more closely related than SVR and TVR. Yet, AGS has a section for lionhead and a section for ranchu which lumps SVR and TVR.

Nikond's fish meets the AGS standards for SVR reasonably well.

-steve

[terryl]

Mikey, I like your car comparison. In fact, I wrote one last evening, but decided not to post it as I do not want to engage more in this debate. But, since you already post yours, I think I should share mine:

Chrysler made the first popular minivan in the world and Toyota and Honda improved it and produced their own popular models. I like my sienna and most of my friends own either a sienna or odyssey. But, I think most Americans will think it is unbelievable if Toyota and Honda claim that their standards for sienna or odyssey are the standards for minivan. Minivan is an ever improving product and holding on one standards will only hold back the progress.

Chinese people created egg shape goldfish. Japanese breeders improved the egg shape goldfish to become their ranchu. Chinese and other Asian breeders further improved the Japanese ranchu to become their version of ranchu. Japanese tried to protect their market share by marketing their standard to the world. Most Chinese and Asian don’t care about the Japanese standards. They know their long history with goldfish and know how to appreciate their subtle beauty. They dont need a standad. We in the west do not have such long history and need to hold on to the “standard” to make us feel secure.


Terry

[mattpadrigan]

we all know goldfish origin derives from the Chinese that did develope many different varieties of fish. These fish were given Chinese names. The Japanese goldfish obviously decended from these Chinese varieties and developed their own unique fish. Just because goldfish in general derive from china does not mean that the style is chinese at all. I think we need to consider the name ranchu or even ryukin. Yes again goldfish are Chinese but these varieties are Japanese. Japanese developed ranchu which are appreciated from top view and Chinese developed the lionhead for side view. Considering the Japanese style of fish hobby, they enjoy fish from top view rather than side view tosakin, koi, ryukin, demekin, jikin etc. The Japanese varieties themselves hold strict standards going back to the beginning of goldfish keeping when the Chinese introduced these beauties. I would say the hundreds of years of dedicated work and developement of ranchu Or whatever it might be, are considered entirely Japanese. So why are these top view ranchu NOW being developed in China if they came from there in the first place? Or is it perhaps the Chinese attempt to take back their mishap of King of Goldfish back to it's Chinese roots? Perhaps I might be entirely wrong. Just my two cents.. -___-;

[bekko]

Matt, my point was not to take sides in the debate about who has the better goldfish; Japan or China. I was only trying to point out that in western goldfish culture, 'ranchu' is synonymous with the variety we here refer to as SVR.

According to Yoshiichi Matsui, the earliest record of ranchu are Chinese paintings dated 1429. The first imports to Japan were 1502. The ryukin is so-named because it was first imported into Japan from China through the Ryukyu Islands.

-steve

[nygold]

So the Ranchu did start in China.

[nygold]

Gregg, you are totally wrong. Ranchu were developed by the Japanese not the Chinese. Chinese Ranchu, both SVR and TVR, have arrived on the scene relatively recently, certainly within the last 30-40 years
According to Yoshiichi Matsui, the earliest record of ranchu are Chinese paintings dated 1429. The first imports to Japan were 1502.

I'm not trying to start a fight but these two statements seem to contradict each other. The history of goldfish I find very interesting, I try to learn as mush as I can but the two things I do know is it's not 1449 and Matsui played for the Yankees.(He's an Angel now, he's not dead he just plays for another team).

[terryl]

Matt.....First, all goldfish were developed for top view for more than a thousand years in China. Japanese just follow the tradition after they imported goldfish from China. There was no such thing as side view goldfish in China until very recently (we are talking decades, not centuries) when glass fish tank become available. Second, the Japanese culture is not an isolated culture and Chinese and Japanese had a lot of interactions throughout history. In most part, for hundreds of years, the influence was from Chinese to Japanese (e.g. just pay attention to the development of Japanese written language over time). The trend only started to reverse after the Second World War. We are talking about the last 50 years out of more than a thousand years of history. We in the west were introduced to egg shape fish from Japan when China closed its door after the communist revolution. We were made to believe that it was created in Japan. Toyota can claim that minivan was developed in Japan because they have Sienna which is one of the most popular minivan in the US. I think Sony can also claim that TV was developed in Japan too.

Remember "ranchu" is not a Japanese name. It is an English name we give to a type of Japanese goldfish. Even the real Japanese name for the Japanese egg shape goldfish (we call it "ranchu" here) is not Japanese. It is likely (from oral history as well as some Chinese goldfish books) that it is a phonic translation of Cantonese old name for egg shape goldfish to Japanese when Japanese first imported egg shaped goldfish from China. (Cantonese called it "egg worm" in the 1500s and 1600s and that pronunciation was translated into Japanese name of the egg shape goldfish in Japan)

We can debate forever ourselves, but I think we need to educate ourselves about the history of goldfish as well as the classification system developed in China over the last thousand years if we are serious about goldfish breeding. Many goldfish information available on the internet may not be reliable. For those who read Chinese, there is a book on goldfish published by the Hong Kong government (a reliable source) in the early 90s that are very good, but out of print. I read the whole book at the reserve library of the University of Hong Kong when I was a visiting professor there a couple years ago. There are also a few books published in mainland China that are useful too, but you need to buy them in China.

Terry

[bigbettadan]

To me, claiming that Japanese are trying to protect their market is rubbish. Now you claim that the SVR is an "improvement?" BS.......... They are easy to produce. I cull "SVR" tails out of ranchu spawns. The top ranchu breeders in Japan could care less about the market.... It is the drive to produce the ideal...

I do agree that the chinese ranchu and the lionhead are more closely related than TVR. There is the Thai SVR( the one that Paul sells) that was developed for Japanese TVR stock. And you can see the difference.

As far as this debate. It is going no where. I fear the only thing accomplish here is the loss of a top breeder and Jinchu kai judge to the forum. I hope I am wrong.

Dan

[terryl]

To me, claiming that Japanese are trying to protect their market is rubbish. Now you claim that the SVR is an "improvement?" BS.......... They are easy to produce. I cull "SVR" tails out of ranchu spawns. The top ranchu breeders in Japan could care less about the market.... It is the drive to produce the ideal...

I do agree that the chinese ranchu and the lionhead are more closely related than TVR. There is the Thai SVR( the one that Paul sells) that was developed for Japanese TVR stock. And you can see the difference.

As far as this debate. It is going no where. I fear the only thing accomplish here is the loss of a top breeder and Jinchu kai judge to the forum. I hope I am wrong.

Dan

I guess after all the "rubbish" and "BS", I better shut my mouth. :worship:
Sign off from this debate.

[bigbettadan]

I see...... If I disagree with you, I am the jerk....

I am done.........

Dan

[terryl]

Hi Dan,

We can alway disagree, with respect, but not calling other people's ideas as "rubbish" or "BS". I think this is the rule of engagement in open forum. I hope you understand, it is not the content of disagreement, but the language you used that discourage other people to engage in meaningful debate.

I like this forum a lot as there are some real good information here. But, I also felt that it has turned to negative and is quite discouraged to speak more here.

Sorry, one last message. I will keep silence here.

Terry

[bigbettadan]

Well, I suggest you read the thread from the beginning, It was not I who started making this personal. I and John were the ones called names....

But don't worry, This is TVR "fanatic" is leaving, you can have it.....

Dan