Eliminating all parasites from a goldfish system

[Corrie]

What would you guys do to eliminate all parasites from a goldfish system?

What meds? for how long? in what order or combination? etc

Corrie

[Virginia ranchu]

What would you guys do to eliminate all parasites from a goldfish system?

What meds? for how long? in what order or combination? etc

Corrie

Do you definitely have a parasite problem? If not, I wouldn't treat with meds unnecessarily. A lot of meds are toxic, and they can kill your biofilter. If you have a bare bottom tank, it's easy to empty it, clean it good and refill it. If you suspect your filter media is contaminated, you should replace it. You will have no beneficial bacteria in your new set up, so expect an ammonia spike. If you have another tank that is unaffected, use some of that aquarium's filter media to get your clean tank started up again. Potassium Permanganate would be my choice for disinfecting, because you can deactivate with dechlorinator or hydrogen peroxide, and it will not leave toxic traces.

BTW, I've heard that Potassium Permanganate will destroy sponge filters if it is too strong.

Rob

[Corrie]

Rob, that's not what I'm asking and almost everything you just suggested will re-contaminate a closed system.

Let's assume you have every parasite known to man.

Keeping in mind that most meds will treat more than one parasite, all have published protocols for goldfish, and are not toxic when used correctly.

I'm asking what protocol would you use to eliminate all parasites from a system?

Fish are amazingly tough and can handle large swings in pH, temp, etc.
It's the parasites that end up doing them in.

Corrie

[BruceP]

1 hour treatment of MinnFinn is the broadest parasite treatment that I am aware of. Won't take out your filtration either.
Now having said that, I assume you asked as a matter of conversation because I never recommend 'treating for everything'. Scrape and scope is always the first step to identify the culprit.

[Corrie]

Bruce, scraping and scoping is not going to tell you everything you need to know.

Nope, not a matter of conversation, I'm serious. You might as well assume that any fish you put into a system has everything and treat it that way. Something you might not assume, might not catch on a scrape, might be sub-pathogenic and come back to contaminate the whole system later.

[Virginia ranchu]

Corrie,

What do mean by "system"? Is this a pond or a rack system with several aquariums and a common sump? Are there plants and substrate? I would disagree that aquarium medications are safe when used "correctly". Formalin and copper are pretty toxic, and goldfish will die from most manufacturers recommended formalin treatments. Anything that spares your biofilter isn't likely to be 100% effective on all parasites. Maybe remove the fish and hold them in a temporary quarantine, then hit your system hard with KMNO4, and use a dip method on the fish before returning them to the clean system.

Rob

[Corrie]

But Rob, none of that really matters.
Anything can be a system from a 10gal tank, to a 10,000gal pond, to a rack of tanks.
But I do see what you are thinking. It didn't occur to me that someone would want to treat the fish in the system.

I would disagree that aquarium medications are safe when used "correctly". Formalin and copper are pretty toxic, and goldfish will die from most manufacturers recommended formalin treatments.

Then we'll have to disagree and move on. Killing your fish would not be using a med correctly. ;)

You really shouldn't be using biological filtration when you're treating with meds, water quality should be maintained with water changes.
The gook in your biological filter is going to muck up your meds (scientifical terms ;) )

You can let a system go fallow for a certain period of time, and that will eliminate most, if not all, parasites in the system.

Now suppose you want to treat the fish, to eliminate all parasites on and in the fish, before you put them back in that system.

What meds, in what order, in what combination, would you use to clean the fish up before you put them into a clean system? The idea being, to eliminate all parasites from the system when you are finished.

I was thinking to treat with salt first, bumping it up with formalin if they show any signs of anything that formalin will treat.
Cleaning that out of them, then possibly treating with copper second to get things that first treatment missed.
Then any surviving flukes hit with an organo-phosphate and good wormer.
And don't worry about lice or anchor worms unless they show up.

And no, I'm not into fish torture! LOL
Corrie

Corrie

[terryl]

Parasites do not live in dead fish. So, the only way to eliminate ALL parasites is to........

I guess the second best is to know who your enemies are. Internal vs external and understand their life cycle. Some needs intermediate host while others don't. Some have a short life cycle and only infest your fish in certain stage of their life. Some need higher temperature while some hate hight temperature.

We in the US like to have everything under our control. But, sometimes living with your enemies may be a better solution.

Terry

[Corrie]

so far this thread is going no where! LOL

I didn't think this would be that difficult. I'm just coming at this from a different direction than some of you guys are I guess.

Salt, PP, copper, formalin, chloramine T, droncit, dimilin, organo-phosphates, levanisole, flubendazole, ........

I will not use malachite green, don't ask.

That's the short list. How would you use them with the goal of eliminating all parasites?

[Virginia ranchu]

Sounds like OCD to me

[Ichthius]

That's the pot calling the kettle black! ;) We're all self diagnosed OCD just by being members.

I just like to say it's not an obsession, it's an avocation.

[BruceP]

so far this thread is going no where! LOL

I didn't think this would be that difficult. I'm just coming at this from a different direction than some of you guys are I guess.

Salt, PP, copper, formalin, chloramine T, droncit, dimilin, organo-phosphates, levanisole, flubendazole, ........

I will not use malachite green, don't ask.

That's the short list. How would you use them with the goal of eliminating all parasites?

I answered you in my first post. If you dont want to follow it that doesnt mean the thread is going nowhere.

[Corrie]

Bruce, MinnFinn is just hydrogen peroxide. I have been using hydrogen peroxide for decades and it treats a narrow range of parasites, is very unstable, and to be effective has to be used at exactly the right stage of the parasite you are trying to hit.

The question was "What meds, in what order, in what combination, would you use to clean the fish up before you put them into a clean system? The idea being, to eliminate all parasites from the system when you are finished."

LOL thanks David!
It's not OCD at all, it's just smart. I'm not going to invest a whole lot of money and time into fish and sit back and loose them to some parasite because I didn't clean them up first.
Besides, cleaning them up is fairly easy.

You guys keep missing the point. Fish are tough as nails. By themselves, they can take huge temp changes, pH swings, etc. It's the parasites they get that do them in. Eliminate the parasites.

Corrie

[TheTruth]

quick cure works best every 3 days for about 2 weeks changing water as you go then use salt for one month keep temp at 80

[BruceP]

I suggest reading the MinnFinn label.... it is not just HP although I have in the past done a HP dip for flukes that worked.
Maybe we just arent getting what your after.
Perhaps rewording would make it clear.
Are you after our QT protocol for new fish?
Do you need help?

[Corrie]

Truth, thanks but I'm not going to use malachite green.

Bruce, it's hydrogen peroxide and vinegar. Called Peracetic acid. It's been used in aquaculture forever. I don't like it.

The question is very simple.

What meds, in what combinations, in what order, would you use to eliminate all parasites from a goldfish?

Say you just bought a very expensive goldfish, one you can not afford to loose, or a one of a kind that can not be replaced.

I would assume you would want to treat it for the obvious fast moving parasites first, the ones that could kill the fish fast - ick, costia, etc - even columnaris

Then move on to the slower parasites - flukes, internal worms, etc -

The idea being that you end up with just a fish.

[BruceP]

Why don't YOU tell us how YOU would do it then?

[Corrie]

Because that's what I'm trying to figure out by asking.

[terryl]

Corrie,

I don't understand why you focus on parasite. I was in professional goldfish breeding business for two decades, with hunderd of thousands of fancy fish passed through my hands, and parasites had never been an issue. Bacteria and virus are the major killers, so as overfeeding plus high temperature. I don't think you can find a mighty medicine that can eliminate all bugs, but the treatments suggested in books like the "Francy Goldfish" work extremely well. I don't believe that you can find something magic that is not already known by people here or by Dr. Erik Johnson.

Goldfish are very resilient animal. As long as you keep good water quality and feed them good foods, they live a long life. I think we should just sit back, relax, and enjoy our fish, instead of trying to micro-control the environment, like a controlling parent.

terry

Terry

[bigbettadan]

The only parasite you need to worry about is flukes. Prazi does the job.... and salt. Keep it simple........

Dan

[Corrie]

Would anyone else like to talk down to me, accuse me of being OCD or controlling?

This was supposed to be a thread about treating a fish, not an open invitation to put me down for asking.


Terry, malachite green absorbs into the fish, it's been known to affect a fishes ability to breed later.

Bruce, Peracetic acid degrades very fast, even when stabilized with vinegar. The vinegar will feed a bacterial bloom in your system - cloudy water - and make your system unstable. Because it does not stay in the system, it will only treat the stage that the parasite is exposed to it, right then.

Dan, thanks. I want to treat for flukes, but for the most part, flukes are not a fast killer. That would be something I would also treat for, but at the end.

Salt kills a lot of things, wouldn't you want to start out with salt and warm water?
If you can add potassium permanganate to that, or use it as a dip, you could knock out even more parasites right off the bat.
How about using formalin as a dip with the salt treatement??
Copper???

I'm asking.

I don't know how goldfish would take to this.

Corrie

[TheTruth]

quick cure every 3 days with water changes for 2 weeks at 80 temp after water change use salt for 1 mo

[Corrie]

Truth, thanks
We have hard water with a pH of about 8, I do not want to use malachite green.

Corrie

[flaringshutter]

My two cents - every time anyone suggests something, you put them down quickly or poo-poo their suggestions as useless. Don't disregard their opinions so soon - these guys have been breeding and keeping goldfish for decades, and they know what they're talking about!

Anyway...

As for me, I would start with salt and heat for a week, then praziquantel and finally, if the scrape & scope still shows parasites, perhaps dimilin as David recommended a while back. That's just a general suggestion though, I very much agree with the scrape & scope FIRST suggestion. Then you know what you're dealing with and which meds or combination of meds will take out the parasites while causing the least damage to the fish and biofilter.

[Corrie]

My two cents - every time anyone suggests something, you put them down quickly or poo-poo their suggestions as useless. Don't disregard their opinions so soon - these guys have been breeding and keeping goldfish for decades, and they know what they're talking about!

Thanks shutter, I'll keep that in mind as soon as someone takes the time to actually read what I have said and stop putting me down for asking. I explained what I didn't want to use, and I explained why I didn't want to use something.

I'm just do not trust scrape and scope. Many times fish can injest parasites, ick has been found in fish guts, or you can just miss them. Costia would be one that is very hard to find with a S&S, and could wipe them all out fast and there are new costia that seem to be salt resistant.

How would you treat for costia?

[Ichthius]

Hi Iris

You've hit the nail on the head.

dimilin is only if you've got anchor worms or other chitin bearing nasties. Its so easy to treat its really fairly rare to get them...

[Cincy Ranchu]

Lots of interesting back and forth, here is my closet;
Formadelhyde
quick cure
Potassium permangenate
Oxilinic acid
Trichloroform
Prazi
salt
methylene blue
neosporin
In the past I have had injectibles ( now I just toss the fish)

I think the intial question is how would I make these GF parasite free, in my fish world I will classify bacteria as parasites also.

1) salt and warm water first- 2 weeks

2)If Aeromonas shows then salt 84F and oxilinic acid, oxilinic for 3 treatments with water changes and then hold for another 2 weeks. (Trouble with this is the Aeromonas still comes back the following season as the temeprature ramps from 66F to 72F)

3) Dip in formaldehyde or PP, then proceed with scrappings

4) I would finish with prazi (vodka mix)

5) in order to keep parasite free quaranteening, tap water treatment and filter maintenace would have to be rigid.

The other chemistries listed are special use or emergency procedures....

What say you?:youtellme:

[Corrie]

Lots of interesting back and forth, here is my closet;
I think the intial question is how would I make these GF parasite free, in my fish world I will classify bacteria as parasites also.

Thank you Gary, it only took three pages! LOL :yess:

You know where I'm off to, I'll have time for more later when I get back.

Thanks again
Corrie

[TheTruth]

been using mal green for many yrs with no problems breeding ranchu

[Corrie]

Truth, thanks, but I'm not going to use malachite green.

[orandablue]

Though slightly unnerving in verbal form,.. this post IS informative... I am dealing with a huge overhaul on a tank that can't shake some parasitic invasion! I am soooooo frustrated , as i am sure we all get when sh*t goes down~ basically I am tearing out gravel today in a 75 gallon that has been giving my fish, the new ones, pop eye and flukes??or some other parasite they keep flicking off. I myself have tried Prazi then parasite clear by jungle, usually works right NO so o.k. lets do salt STILL NO GOOD all while cleaning the crap out of filters cutting down on fish #'s in tank and WC's daily! I LOVE Permanganate for cleaning so will do that now. It does mess with filter so i was reluctant to use it.
The fish seem clean as soon as i take them out of this tank So it is got to be in the substrate...every time i stir it up vacuming it gets them jumpy, scraping. The salt is at 1.004 and i thought that would kill lots of things ...anyone think salt takes awhile to work?? or have any tips welcome to suggest. thanks and good luk with spring cleanin!

[Corrie]

I thought that was going to be the purpose of this thread too!

Don't know what to tell you, I never could get Prazi to work unless I did it completely different than the "instructions", and then it was still hit and miss.

And flukes I'll never understand. Seems like people do not even try to just eliminate them, and instead just live with them until they cause a problem.

I would just break that entire system down, clorox the you know what out of it, and start it over.
While you have the fish out and bare-bottomed, put them through something to eliminate everything. Then put it all back together again.

Corrie