Concrete pond designed just for Bristols

[Corrie]

Looks like we will be moving in the near future. If this really comes through, I will finally get to have the fish pond I've wanted my whole life and never had a place to have it.
This house I will be able to make a square concrete back patio, with a raised pond almost all the way around it. "L" shaped.
The pond would be made out of cement blocks, then sealed to make it water tight. 8ft across, one leg about 15ft, and the other leg about 20ft. I haven't figured out depth yet.

If you guys had to design a pond just for Bristol Shubunkins, and nothing else, what would you recommend?

If I'm going to finally be able to have a pond, I need to start planning (budget!) now, so I don't make too many mistakes.

Thanks guys
Corrie

[midnight]

My advice on the construction is to go to Koiphen website to ensure proper constuction...sealing block is a challenge. Are you wintering the Bristols outdoors or bringing them in...I've had them in 4 ft depth in large pond but in England, where temps are milder, ponds for raising aren't that deep.

[Corrie]

Thanks midnight!
I tried to post everything I could think of, but realized this morning I really didn't post a lot to go on. I was just trying to organize my thoughts when you posted.
Someone had mentioned to us a while back that bristols shouldn't be in deep water. I'm not clear on exactly what deep means. Is that a foot? two feet?

I would like to have plants in the pond, waterlilies and hornwort only.
My plan is to put the plants in, and then no fish for four/five months. Hopefully that would get rid of any flukes and other parasites.

Where we are moving is still tropical or semi-tropical, south of Miami Florida, so the fish would be outside year around.

I checked the well water already, and checked with the neighbors around there. It is a rock solid pH 8. Because of the coral rock it's buffered.
With that in mind, I don't think I will do any elaborate filtration system. It would be a lot easier to just do water changes.

I had found this sealer on the internet for sealing cement blocks and concrete.
I plan on using this, or something like it if someone knows of something better.

http://www.pondarmor.com/

Thanks midnight, I saw bristols when I was a child and have been in love with them ever since. This is the first time in my life that I will have a place to keep them and feel like I can take care of them.

Thanks again
Corrie

[midnight]

hi, do a search on Koiphen for Pondarmor...

Tony Roberts, one of the most successful breeders of Bristols in England has made a point that shubs should not be raised in too deep a water [I believe he said over 18 inches]. However, I have seen them in deeper ponds in England. I doubt that you can find any real evidence that deeper hurts them in any way...I can tell you one way or another from my experience..

good luck

[Corrie]

hi, do a search on Koiphen for Pondarmor...
good luck

I searched, didn't find anything negative about it, and it seems like it would do exactly what I need to do. When I get closer to being ready, I'll give them a call.

Thanks again!
Corrie

[johnatoranchu]

The rule of thumb here is that goldfish ponds need to be at least 2ft deep for winter protection. I have never heard any specific depths mentioned as far as Bristols specifically are concerned. Having seen the excellent carriage on Dave Mandley's "old" Bristol Shubunkins (8-12 inch bodies) which were grown in ponds 12 ft or more deep, I actually discussed this question of water depth with Tony Roberts. One of Tony's sons, Craig, has/had a koi pond which is certainly over 5ft deep and we discussed the potential for using this pond to house his Bristol breeders. I think there will be a period of experimentation here as one of the major problems which besets Bristol Shubunkin breeders here is that as the fish grow their tails are liable to collapse resulting in an ugly fish, whether it be in Aquarium or pond.
John

[bigbettadan]

I wonder alot of that... The bristol tail ideal itself does not lend itself to big ponds or fast moving current as that will cause the tail to collapase. In my mind I would use tall aquariums with only sponge filters with weekly 100% water changes. Basically treat it like a big betta Jar. Then I would know for sure if the ray strength was genetic and not caused by conditions. Of course this is all theory on my end......

Dan

[bluebelly]

Some of the best bristols I have ever produced calico or metallic are from deep water up to twenty feet and with 5 underground springs and a fountain and pump system moving 1/3 foot acre of water a day which is recycled causing a lot of movement. A famous bristol breeder has asked for some of my fish to be sent back to England because of the tails. Of course the down side to deep water is the change in body shape

[bigbettadan]

Yes the deep water should support the tail and cut down on the current. The water current is huge IMO.........
Dan

[bigbettadan]

Opps, I should of read your post more thoughly. My theory is based all on betta tail experience...So I stand corrected. But I did notice how much nicer the tails are on Garys bristols in his aquariums vs the ones pulled out of the ponds. But again, you are the expert.

Dan

[bluebelly]

Not the expert. Did Gary not want to take a chance with best fish in outside pond, thats why fish in house look better. I think for me outside fish to survive have to be strong tailed to out swim predators. Flawed finnage may make them more vulnerable so natural selection at work. That is my best guess

[bigbettadan]

You may be right, it just seemed to me to be logical that constant hard swimming would cause their tail to collapase, as it does with bettas in tanks vs a jar...

Dan

[Corrie]

Thanks guys!
I actually sat down today, in several places, and thought about the new pond.
I don't have to worry about depth because of cold weather, but I do because of heat and sun. Then there's my anatomy to consider. I do want to have a seat along the side of the pond facing the patio, so I can sit and watch them.
That makes the seat about 30 inches high, so the depth of the pond can be anything below that. Some strategically planted palm trees will take care of the shade.

Now I just need to figure out a good sealer to use on the inside of cement blocks. The last time I did this I used Thoroseal. I'm sure there are newer and better products out now.

Thanks again, I'm getting excited and a little nervous
Corrie

[bluebelly]

Dan your fin ray count may be most revealing.

[bigbettadan]

True........ I just need to find time and the right stock to do it.... To many projects! LOL

Dan

[BruceP]

Corrie....... 30" is about the height of a table. If you want a relaxed sitting position 20" would be more accommodating. One of our ponds is 24" and I find it a bit high. Our pond that is only about 14" (height at the sitting edge)I think is the most comfortable but that makes for more digging for the pond itself as the water is 2' deep.

The absolute best, bar none great sealer is sprayed Polyurea! Downside is cost and you cant install it yourself. But it IS the best! All the rest of the pond sealers work well IF you spend alot of time in preparing the surface for the application. They do have a tendancy to lift, bubble, peel, etc. so prep is critical. I think somewhere on Koiphen.com there is a listing of the different materials and their pros and cons.

[Corrie]

Thanks Bruce!
We're going to pour the patio slab first, then build the pond up from there. That's going to stop me from digging down. Plus I don't trust drains and elec (pumps) with me in the water, so I want the whole pond above grade so I can siphon it out.
Part of the pond will be a wall around the patio. The guys that are going to plaster the wall said they knew how to use Thoroseal, so that settled it. They can plaster the inside with Thoroseal and I can also have them dye it black.

Thanks again
Corrie

[Corrie]

uk oh I'm in trouble.

I just saw bluebelly's sunburst.

How in this world would I put them in the same pond with bristols, and still control the breeding?

I suppose if I could talk bluebelly into sexing them, putting only female sunbursts in the pond would give me some control over breeding. I could pull the bristols and hand spawn them, and there would be no male sunbursts to drive the female bristols.

This might not be a good idea, but I really like the sunbursts!

Corrie

[small_ranchu]

how about two ponds? lol

[Corrie]

Hush up Fred! LOL

Then as long as I have two ponds, I might as well have three, four, 15, 30......

Nope, I really have to stick to one pond this time. ;)

[Lari]

You said at the beginning you were considering an L shaped pond. Why not split it into two rectangular ponds. Then you wouldn't have to worry about separating the two types of fish.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Consider the 80 lb retention wall bricks and a plastic inner liner, I think you will be happier and not experience leakage. On of my blogs has pictures of the construction. Also you must have a mesh cover anywhere in Miami or dozens of types of preditors will make it impossible to keep fish outdoors. Also you must have enough shade to prevent the water from being over 90F most of the summer. Continuous aeration and consider an automatic programable water changer.


I have now about six lines of Birstols, I would be glad to send you some to test for tail flop, but I think it is overstated by a few exhibitors, they are all beautiful

THX

[Corrie]

Lari, When we move, I'm moving from hundreds of tanks, vats, and ponds. I really only want one pond, one pump, this time.

Gary, I'll take you up on that offer.
I'm planning on screening in the whole patio. The pond would be inside that screen. Don't forget raccoons, there's a ton of raccoons out there too. A row of royal palms behind the pond will shade it from high noon until dark.
Our outside ponds here in the Keys rarely get over 80F in the summer as long as they are shaded.
aeration I had planned, along with a small fountain in the middle. Water changes I would rather do manually, I don't trust automatic anything. Plus, it will be from a deep well. I don't want to have to wire up the pump from the well to a automatic switch.

We've used Thoroseal before and never had a problem with it. I like it cause I can get in the pond and it's not slippery. Plus, the guys will have to plaster the outside of the blocks anyway.
It takes a little longer to "age" the Thoroseal, but I know a shortcut for that.

I'd like to get fish that are line-bred, and do my own crosses. This will be my retirement pond and hobby. I think that would be a great/fun hobby, and not so involved that we are tied to the house and farm and can't leave for a couple of days.

Gary, I'll let you know way in advance and give you plenty of time. I'm not in a hurry. Thank you again!

Thanks guys!
Corrie

[ranchusteve]

If you really want to go crazy, liquid membrane the pond, then ceramic tile it, like they do pools and epoxy grout it. Totally waterproof! A nice mosiac mural in the bottom of a couple goldfish, and you just raised youir taxes a couple thousand dollars!:)...............Steve

[Cindy]

Since you are having the cement poured for the patio why not consider just building a frame and having your pond all concrte? That's what we use in the greenhouses and they really last forever.

It may not even be as expensive as the spray on liner you were looking at. A solid concrete tank with an overflow drain is what I have found works really great. It even makes it easy to clean and by draining, easier to catch fish.

[Cincy Ranchu]

How about an update on the pond project?

[Corrie]

Hey Cindy, two great minds. I'm pouring and thorosealing. I can mix black cement dye in the thoroseal.

Don't even ask Gary. The farm we're trying to buy is in the courts right now. We won't know until the bank gets it back. So we're on hold. Got to sell this one too!

So no fun updates on the pond at all. :unsure:

I'm keeping myself busy thinking about breeding. Look at my showa thread, you know what I'm thinking. ;-)

[Cincy Ranchu]

This can be done and the breeding stock for this type of project is always available in April and May. I believe most American commercial breeders are trying for blue instead of white.

Shubunkins that arte whole-saled in to hatcheries and large retail outlets sometimes have thousands to choose from.... I think a project like this can be done

[Corrie]

Thank you
That will keep me busy. God forbid, I would get bored on a farm, right? LOL