Oranda fry Culling?

[jesster2]

Hi everbody. I had my orandas spawn and eggs hatch at Christmas time. I have already done one culling, and that was for the obvious single tail rather then the double. They are starting to get bigger now and I think I am going to have to do at least one more culling, but probably two. My question is when culling oranda fry is there something in particular I should be looking for? I have seen a couple fry with a bowed back, and others with a like seagull wings body shape. My wife is telling me I should let them grow more before culling them too quickly, becuase of the potential they may eventually turn into. What do some of you breeders have to say? Thanks everybody.

Jesse

[Virginia ranchu]

What's most important is that you are not crowding the fry, and that they get plenty to eat, and frequent water changes. People often try to keep too many fry for too long, and they all become deformed and stunted due to poor water quality and poor nutrition. I suggest you at least take 10 good prospects and give them a tank of their own...like 20 gallons. That way, if you wait too long to cull the others, at least some will be spared.

[afnaveils]

Mr. Lim would be an excellent ressource for culling oranda fry.:exact:

[HNLim]

You must start your culling as early as you can. 3 days old if possible and you have to be very ruthless with your culling. Do not hope for a slightly deformed fry to recover as it grows up. The bigger it gets the more fault it will display. So, don't try to hope for the best. Better to keep 5 pieces of high quality fry than 500 low quality ones. Try to give the best space and food to the best fry.

At the early stage, you could only cull from the top view. You should be able to spot those with uneven tail, too narrow opening tail, crooked body etc, etc....

I use a magnifying glass with a build-in light. This allows for early culling. Water condition and plenty of live food is essential. The first 3 weeks will determine the form of the fish and the next 3 months will permanently retain its form. I call this the 3/3 rule. That is why the more resources you can give to the fry the better. With limited resources, you only have one choice, reduce the number of fry.

You should be able to start side view culling at about 3 weeks old.

By the first month you should be left with about 10% of the fry.

[johnatoranchu]

Excellent teaching Lim - this is what this site should be all about.
This same advice holds good regardless of the variety being culled.
John

[jesster2]

Thanks so much. It really helps me out! I only want what is best for the breed of fish. I will start a more thorough culling! Thanks again!! The information this site provides is outstanding and the things we can learn from other people in the hobby is beyond priceless!!

[mattpadrigan]

just out of curiousity as i am not a breeder myself. what do you do to the unwanted cull? :-/

[HNLim]

just out of curiousity as i am not a breeder myself. what do you do to the unwanted cull? :-/
Food for the big fish or down the sewer.

[jesster2]

I have been looking at my fry real closely at certain culls and noticed a difference in how some hold their tails. Some when viewed from above have a fanshaped tail. While others have straighter more like a single tail goldfish. Is one more prized then the other? Just curious. Thanks.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Neither clamped nor completely fanned is acceptable. They must swim not flutter:exact:

[orandablue]

I learned the ugh yuky way that the longer you wait the harder it is. (such cuties) I have lost whole spawns too. I realize now I am going to cull most of my fry! I have only been breeding goldfish for a little while. It is hard starting out. It is NOT tropical breeding! However...I am growing out ALL my ranchu fry from one spawn (even deformities) because I want a percentage of black coloration between breeding these two ranchus. Don't forget facial deformities as well. I am not sure at what week they are quite visible but they can be shocking! Like oh crap that fish has an eye above its nose!!
Use clove oil to paralize them then freeze them. You have to kill the brain.
or garbage disposal? It is not for everyone but somehow even more gratifying in the end.

[orandablue]

don't drink and cull!http://incredimazing.com/static/media/2009/02/12/d9fc231473d7ea0/fishy.jpg

[Cincy Ranchu]

there are lots of techniques, I like feeding to other fish which is natural, but when you go through 4000 fry, you have a capacity issue. Freezing, flushing etc. all work, it doesn't really matter unless it is inhumane or cruel:exact:

[flaringshutter]

Please do not flush - even if the fry do not survive you don't know what viruses, fungus, bacteria, parasites, etc they are letting loose in the water system. I also think it's inhumane. A quick clove oil bath and/or freezing are my preferred methods.

[johnatoranchu]

Please do not flush - even if the fry do not survive you don't know what viruses, fungus, bacteria, parasites, etc they are letting loose in the water system. I also think it's inhumane. A quick clove oil bath and/or freezing are my preferred methods.

Freezing is deemed to be cruel here (takes too long) and is unnecessary in any event if clove oil or "koi" anaesthetic (triple recommended dose) is used. I use the latter and the fish, regardless of size, die very quickly, seemingly just "going to sleep".
John

[Cincy Ranchu]

Please do not flush - even if the fry do not survive you don't know what viruses, fungus, bacteria, parasites, etc they are letting loose in the water system. I also think it's inhumane. A quick clove oil bath and/or freezing are my preferred methods.

I read this and realize that some people have no clue where sewers go, WWT plants destroy all pathogens. Your reply is at least misinformed, you consider it inhumane because you don't under stand sewers and waste waste treatment, sorry internet garbage from you!:badidea::badidea::badidea:

[flaringshutter]

Whoah, whoah, that's not true, and there's no need to be so rude about it. I do understand where sewers go, very thoroughly in fact, and I don't think you understand that wastewater treatment systems are very different in different countries, states, counties, even cities. Some treat with chlorine, some do not, and the regulations are different in each area. So depending on the treatment process, and where the treated wastewater goes afterward, it's possible for some parasites, viruses, or bacteria to survive. In our case, the treated wastewater goes into a natural arroyo and on to the ocean. So I am very careful what I put down the drain.

Secondly, I consider it inhumane because on the way to the wastewater treatment plant, while traveling through the sewers, the fry could suffer before dying. That's just my opinion.

[small_ranchu]

Please calm down like I am foreseeing the future this conversation. Since Gary(cincy ranchu) is one of the top person of waste water management system around the world(true, he travel around the world), I would like to hear Gary's opinion. But theory or plan on the paper might be different from actual implementation.

[flaringshutter]

I'm interested to hear his explanations too, I just don't enjoy the rude words.

[Cincy Ranchu]

I'm interested to hear his explanations too, I just don't enjoy the rude words.

So you prefer poisoning culls and I prefer suffication in a sewer, this is just preference. Sewer water is oxygen free or anoxic,death is quick.

Culls are not diseased fish, and the aerobic or anaerobic digestion of the waste water treatment plants digests everything biological as it goes through the plant, followed by a disinfection process; chlorine, Chloramine,ozone, or UV. It is strictly regulated by the Clean Water Actin the US and similiar laws around the world.. If your argument or should I say suggestion leads people to believe that putting culls into the sewer is not a safe practice. Using your logic then, we should put water from our tanks in the sewer either, because old tank water has the same organisms or contaminants.

You might feel picked on but in fact you are creating "misinformation that becomes folfkure on the web and often leads to bad rules for us serious hobbiest.
You take beautiful pictures and may know a lot about photography, your information on biology is just poor!:exact:

THX GH

[Bucks Koi]

Why not put them in a blender that's quick.
Then mix with a good paste food .
Recycle that is green way.:exact:

[HNLim]

Why not put them in a blender that's quick.
Then mix with a good paste food .
Recycle that is green way.:exact:
I prefer the sewer for the culls and "Hikari" Lionhead for my orandas.

[flaringshutter]

So you prefer poisoning culls and I prefer suffication in a sewer, this is just preference. Sewer water is oxygen free or anoxic,death is quick.

Culls are not diseased fish, and the aerobic or anaerobic digestion of the waste water treatment plants digests everything biological as it goes through the plant, followed by a disinfection process; chlorine, Chloramine,ozone, or UV. It is strictly regulated by the Clean Water Actin the US and similiar laws around the world.. If your argument or should I say suggestion leads people to believe that putting culls into the sewer is not a safe practice. Using your logic then, we should put water from our tanks in the sewer either, because old tank water has the same organisms or contaminants.

You might feel picked on but in fact you are creating "misinformation that becomes folfkure on the web and often leads to bad rules for us serious hobbiest.
You take beautiful pictures and may know a lot about photography, your information on biology is just poor!:exact:

THX GH

As clove oil (eugenol) is an anaesthetic, I think it is less cruel than suffocation.

Also, since this board is open to an international audience, I don't suggest flushing anything alive, ever. In the US we may have strict regulations but this is not true in many other countries.

I don't feel picked on, I just don't think it's a good idea to be rude on any forum. We can correct and educate each other without being rude.

[fish don't sweat]

So you prefer poisoning culls and I prefer suffication in a sewer, this is just preference. Sewer water is oxygen free or anoxic,death is quick.

:exact:

.....

[jesster2]

Just a quick update. Out of te roughly 150 fry that I had only 5 remain. This is due to vigorous cullings. Out of these five I think one maybe two are going to be a nice quality, but definately not show quality. My hat is off to breeders that do multiple spawns of thousands of fry. It is really hard on the eyes and back. I still want to thank everyone who has given me advice and tips. Oh and I think I may have hooked my sister-in-laws friend on goldfish when she came visiting.:) Thanks again everyone.

Jesse

[small_ranchu]

Jesse,
It will be nice if you can update the progress of the little one(lets say every 2 weeks). So everybody can learn from you... :) Thanks.

[Hondataeg6]

Jesse,
It will be nice if you can update the progress of the little one(lets say every 2 weeks). So everybody can learn from you... :) Thanks.

And if you can add pictures with the updates that would be even better...

[BruceP]

I have trouble culling. I know pretty well how to pick out an adult Oranda that will be a good show fish but when it comes to culling babies I havent a clue. Wish there were pix of what body shape was preferred and what shape should be culled. The variance of shape with our babes is very slight. Guess that means they are all good or all bad. LOL

[small_ranchu]

Is it true that Oranda tends to get more good quality babies than ranchu? A friend of mine told me 25% of the spawn has good quality. ???

[Ranchu Rancher]

After reading this whole tread I can say I agree with most of what has been said. 1. You have to be ruthless EARLY and OFTEN. Waiting to see if they will grow out of something,don't it won't happen. 2. When my culls are small I feed them to my fish, when they are to large to feed to my fish I use clove oil. 3. I am with Jesse, those who cull thousands of fry has to be a grueling task. I'm going to stick to one type of goldfish. I started with around 500 fry and now I have 38 babies.

Gregg

[sanggarra]

Gonna ride on this thread. I am culling a small batch of Oranda babies from Bruce.

Are Oranda with clasp (parallel) tail even though forked and split a cull?

Another question, the upper caudal should be equal or larger if compared to the lower caudal?

Thanks in advance for the help guys!

[sanggarra]

Everyone must be still recovering from their huge turkey dinner like I am... or no one knows?...

....zzzZZZZ...zzzzz.... :))

[fantail1]

Upper and lower lobes of the caudal should be equal.

Don't know about the parallel tails, but it sounds to me like that is a cull. The tails should be spread and if they are too close together you won't get the right appearance from above / behind

David

[Cincy Ranchu]

Seems from the description it is a cull, but if it swims well I might keep it until I see the effect of a barrel chest on the fin position and swimming.
As for dorsal, compare dorsal fin rays, there are always some missing some fin rays.....

[sanggarra]

Thank you all for your answers. I have culled 3 that are does not have good body form or size with unspread tails and kept 2 with minimal spread separated in a 20 gallon.
If they turn out to be very nice fish, is this trait genetic and they are not appropriate for breeding?

Gary,
The barrel chest effect you mentioned, can you elaborate? Do you mean it swimming movement looks like a barrel moving thru water?

They are too small for me to be able to cleary see fin rays, I just make sure they are upright and not crooked for now.
When they get bigger I will observe the rays. I do have one that has a little fold on one side of the upper caudal tail core.
Other than this defect, it has good form, size, etc. I probably be separating this one out too if I have enough good ones.
Some of the small one have what look like ranchu tail LOL!

Bruce sent me around 40, I have so far culled 6 and separated 2 out. There are a number of too small ones that I may also cull or separate.

Do you also cull for opened gill plate? I see a very nice one but the gill plate cover on one side appears bent out.
DO you cull this? Will it improve?
It will be heartbreaking to cull this one.

[fantail1]

You are looking for Orandas - so deep body, wide head, high dorsal, split tail held properly, regular gill plates (the hood won't grow properly on curled gill plates) so yes - cull the curled plate. Truth is out of 40 you will be lucky to find 1 decent fish. Fancy goldfish are a numbers game and if you work on 1% being good, you will get the idea.

[sanggarra]

Thanks much for the guide, fantail1! And confirming the cull for the curled gill plate.

I am only looking to keep not more than 2-3 of them, OK... max 4 :-P
But based on 1%, I will get less than half a good Oranda... Hahahaha!

Do you cull based on size and how to go about it? Is there a time to cull base on size?
That is, should I wait and see if any of them will catch up, or it is set now, the bigger will always be bigger and vice versa?

Any and all culling tips general and Oranda specific is welcomed and much appreciated from all you.

Thanks again to those that has and still throwing knowledge this way. :)

[fantail1]

I cull on size early on, say in the first month. Anything that is still tiny when the vast majority are 1cm body length, in other words the obvious runts. After that I cull for characteristics. I have kept 30 or so fantails this winter, some of which are barely half the size of the largest but there are two reasons for this. Some of the smaller ones are clearly males and show good shape (for males) and some are because we already have the cold weather and I have reached the point of letting them go cold so they will stay now for the winter and a final assessment will be made when they are warmed up in the spring.

As for culling technique, I remove anything that cannot be what I want. So I am looking at characteristics all the time. I haven't bred Orandas so I can't add much to my earlier comments. One technique you might try is to remove the worst half each time until you get from 40 to say 8 (probably over a month with fortnightly culls) or alternatively, as you are looking for 4 fish, select the best 8 now and get rid of the rest. Either way, concentrate on the 8 - more food & space for them and hopefully you will find the start of your strain in there.

David