Comment

[SeaWitch]

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11777#post11777

This thread was closed before I could reply to Dan, I am sure he did that on purpose because he is always right and there is no need for anyone else to be able to voice their opinions.

My beef was not with ppl who breed fish. I do think that breeding fish is a worthwhile cause and never said I didn't. My beef is with certain members here who treat other members BADLY. IMO, there is NO NEED for that on ANY type of GF forum. Dan's reply just proves that there are some ppl here who think they are better than others because they buy high-priced fish and breed them. PLEASE explain to me HOW that makes you better, Dan, and WHY that gives you the right to treat others like they are stupid??? BTW, that KoKos remark was uncalled for. I guess you think that you are better than everyone over there, too. And no, I am not a member of KGW, but that still does not give you the right to hurt other ppl's feelings for trying to learn something in this forum!

In this post, there are some ppl who answered the question of the OP very nicely and didn't feel the need to sound superior or make fun of them. However, there are some members here who act like they know EVERYTHING there is no know about GF and I am here to say that no one will EVER know everything there is to know about GF. They are a species that you can learn something new about every day.

Also, I never said that GF and humans are on the same level, either. Dan, you put words into my mouth that were never posted and totally skipped my complaint and your reasons for acting like you did. I also think that was done on purpose. It is a great strategic move-when someone is put on the level and knows they are wrong, they try to turn the attention elsewhere.

I have had my say. Go ahead and lock this one, too, if you want.

[bigbettadan]

You attacked me, not the other way around. I just defended a friend and myself..... I am done with this is well, it is a waste of time.

[small_ranchu]

Dear All:
I am creating this site to bring the goldfish hobby to different level. This is not a typical goldfish social site for people to celebrate birthday or throwing party online. It's a pure goldfish site. We have a lot of goldfish experts from western world. For example, John is a Judge from Japan and UK. Dan and myself is a junior judge from AGA. We are trying our best to promote goldfish hobby to different level. (It might not mean anything to some of you. But we are trying our best for our goal.) People will tell the truth of about your goldfish or gf behavior. People here will not say a white lie (Eg. "So Cute, So beautiful"). So when you see the comment, please don't take it personal. It is typical for technical web site.
Dear Expert,
Please help us by discussing goldfish issue only to avoid conflict. Thank you.

[bigbettadan]

BTW.... I did not close the thread.... Fred did. So much for that.

Dan

[rcarltonj]

Hello All,

Why was this post closed? It's a valid topic that should be discussed. What are people afraid of? Learning something new? Hearing a different perspective? What's the point of having a discussion board if you can't discuss the issues?

I'm probably one of the guys that some people think the white coats are after. Doesn't bother me one bit! I've got a thick skin and I don't take it personally. I'm also a pretty smart guy (as are most people here) and I think about the issues seriously. If I say something that other people think is off base, show me some good solid evidence to the contrary and I'll change my view.

Nickie, I don't know you personally, and I understand that your feelings are hurt, but don't take it so seriously. The white coat defense only comes out when the other side has a weak argument. If they had a strong argument, they wouldn't need the white coat.

Dan, I don't know you either, and I'm not trying to dis you with the white coat thing. I really would like to hear your point of view. You mentioned a few things in your post when you were talking about dogs, but I'm not convinced that agressive fish make the best breeders. There are many intense, driven bird dogs with lots of stamina that are couch patatos in the house.

In any case, I'm not trying to cause problems or pick a fight with anyone! I'm new to the forum and I don't want to get booted off. I really would, however, like to hear more thoughts on both sides of this issue. As Steve said, it's a perplexing topic. But if Fred wants us to drop it, I'll live with his decision.

[rcarltonj]

Hello All,

Oops! I guess it was John, not Dan that I should have addressed my last comment to.

[small_ranchu]

Sorry Rich,
I have to close the thread in order to stop the flame. We have to close/delete the thread/post to control the situation. I might reopen the thread after deleting some posts. Plz give me some time.

[afnaveils]

ok, I'll be the bad guy. I, on the other hand, personally don't wish to pursue this discussion. I know I don't have to read this particular post. But, the subject is like beliefs. You believe in one thing and I believe in another. You like pasta, I like steak. After hours of discussion, you will still like your pasta and I, my steak. Where will it lead us?

[orandablue]

Um Why do I never get my notifications? I would like to say it is too hard to get notified of the posts. I sometimes don't get an email or anything. I MISSED ALL THIS FUN!!!!! I am just wondering if I am not getting my notifications,...maybe it should be easier to get subscribed to a thread. Am I doing something wrong? Hit subscribe then instant email notification.:youtellme:
(I bet you guys thought the white coats had already got me)

[johnatoranchu]

Guys and girls, what can I say! Having contributed to this site on many occasions I would have thought by now that my sense of humour would be well known, particularly as many of you email me privately. I missed most of the posts on the previous thread but clearly my "white coats" comment has caused offence - it was never meant to. From memory I think the original thread included the word "crazy" and as I agreed totally with that line of thinking and was surprised by the responses which didn't, "men in white coats" to me seemed to be a light hearted way of emphasising just how "crazy" I thought the subject was. I would describe myself as an animal lover (absolutely daft when it comes to our dog and cat) but nevertheless I hope that I never lose sight of the fact that humans are animals BUT animals are not human.
This is an excellent site catering as it does for diehard goldfish fanatics like me on the one hand and members who keep goldfish mainly as pets on the other. I guess that it's inevitable that sometimes our views will clash but perhaps in the future I will bite my tongue and either answer seriously or not join in the thread.
Above all, if my comments have upset you I am very sorry. I apologise UNRESEVEDLY.
John

[rcarltonj]

Hello John and All,

Apology accepted, but I’m not really sure you need to apologize—at least not to me. I’ve been on a variety of discussion boards and I know that the tone can sometimes get to a level that might appear to some people as brutal. But to me, that’s the whole fun of it. You can say things without all the inhibitions of face to face contact. The down side is that sometimes it gets misinterpreted. In this case, I think that’s what happened. Some members just may not be used to this level of Internet banter. But as far as I’m concerned, you can send the white coats after me anytime.

Back to the discussion at hand, I know this topic seems inane to some, but to me it’s worth exploring. If you’re one of the former, feel free to check-out now, you don’t have to read the rest of this post. On the other hand, read on and consider it a form of cheap entertainment.

First of all, let’s compare apples to apples. To me an overly aggressive fish is one that physically harms the other fish. I’m not talking about the occasional or even frequent bite or nibble; I’m talking about a fish that destroys other fish. If this fish is left with other fish, the other fish will sooner or later cease to exist. Why would anyone want such a fish in their tank or pond?

I’m also not one to anthropomorphize my fish. Sure, they’re my pets, but they’re not cute and cuddly like my cats and my dog, so I don’t get all that attached to them. If I buy a fish and it doesn’t turn out to be what I expected it to be, it’s gone. No hems and haws.

Now then, with those ground rules in place, how are goldfish not considered domesticated animals in the same sense as cats and dogs? Modern domesticated animals are entirely the creation of human hands. Are not fancy goldfish? Furthermore, does pulling the occasional overly aggressive fish out of the breeding program endanger the health and vigor of the line? I think not. Otherwise, cats and dogs, and cows, and pigs, and chickens, and horses, and hamsters, and rabbits, and mice, etc, would all be on the brink. They’re not!

OK, maybe I overstated my case a bit. But the point remains the same; removing overly aggressive fish from a breeding program will in no way weaken or endanger a line. Leaving them in the program, however, will only make life more miserable (in the non-anthropomorphic sense) for future schoolmates.

[Corrie]

I'm with Rich on this one.

Unless it's some "special" goldfish, why would you even fool with it?

You guys know I raise clownfish.
With clownfish, if you don't cull the aggressive fish, you won't have a hatchery for long.

This is pretty standard procedure for everyone I know that raises fish.

Why would goldfish be any different?

[bigbettadan]

We are talking about toothless carp that have been manipulated by selection for 100's of years, not Oscars here...... Go ahead and select breeding vigor out of your lines, and the line dies. I just don't see the need. Goldfish are not an aggressive species.

Dan

[Corrie]

Dan, you seem to be equating aggression with vigor. They would not be the same thing at all, I seriously doubt if goldfish were ever bred for aggression.
So not picking aggressive fish would not select breeding vigor out of any lines.

Goldfish might not be considered an aggressive species - like two male bettas - but individual goldfish can have aggressive personalities.
And individual fish that don't fit in, are too rough on their intended mates, etc make the fish breeder's life a living hell, cost too much time and money to maintain.

Back to my original question "Why would goldfish be any different?"

Corrie

[small_ranchu]

Hi All,
I reopend the thread after deleting some of them. Please continue your discussion at the original thread. Thanks.

[bekko]

an overly aggressive fish is one that physically harms the other fish.

Any definition is OK with me. However, one goldfish can intimidate another without ever making physical contact. I'm not sure how they do it but it's probably posture and the way the dominant fish swims. It's possible it is done chemically with pheromones or something like that. You can demonstrate this by watching behavior differences with different grouping of the same lot. In any case, a goldfish which is intimidated and spends all its time hiding in a corner will eventually develop health problems.

Goldfish are not too bad in this respect. When I was raising Banggai cardinals I found that a fish could be intimidated to death in a matter of days without ever being touched by the dominant individual. They don't have to wait to get sick, they can just die of fright.

I'm wondering if domestication has impacted aggressive tendencies in goldfish. Are they more aggressive or less aggressive than the ancestral Gibel carp ??

The link that thomasn provided raises additional things to ponder. Have goldfish been selected for tameness ?? With a thousand years of history, selection for tameness is likely to have occurred in an unwitting way. But, did selection for tameness have an impact on goldfish morphology the way it did in Belyaev's foxes and other domesticated animals ?? In species as diverse as jungle fowl and wolves, selection for tameness has come part-and-parcel with pedomorphosis (google it), dwarfness and giantism, changes in color, changes in tail shape, changes in the number of vertebrae, etc. See, for example,
http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=223

-steve

[Corrie]

Fred, where is the original thread?
I can't find it.

Corrie

[rcarltonj]

More food for thought...

http://www.silvio-co.com/cps/articles/1999/1999jmurphy1.htm

[small_ranchu]

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1564