this might sound crazy

[orandablue]

Has anyone ever considered the temperament of the fish and bred for that?
Can a fish have a "happy" gene? How does a show fish get that winning personality?

o.k. If you breed two mean fish, bad attitudes, real aggressive, do they make b.a. offspring?
Hey any other breeder has to watch for this esp with "pet" species. Are goldfish trickly visual? Does a perfect body, (albeit mutated and inbred for millinea) produce a perfect gold mind?

o.k. I stop now. :me:

[Veil Gal]

I remember Janet Purdum once telling me that: "It sounds crazy but I also select for temperament." She noted that certain fish were more aggressive than typical goldfish, and passed it on.

I know Rick Hess has labelled ryukins as the "bad boys" of goldfish--and I know I had some horrible eye sucking tragedies that were inflicted by ryukin.
So, no, I don't think it is illogical to think that temperament is inherited to some degree.

[johnatoranchu]

Yes, just crazy. Don't answer the door, it might be someone in a white coat!!!!
John

[SeaWitch]

I don't think it is crazy at all. I know that we have all had fish that were...mean, for lack of a better word. I have a fantail right now that has a 30g all to himself because he cannot be put in with the other fish. He is that bad and he is only 3.5", not counting his tail.

Trust me, this question is thrown around alot AND there are many members here who will call you crazy for asking it,:confuse: but they, too, have also thought about it!:exact::lair:

[rcarltonj]

OK, I'm not a breeder--yet, but I think this is right on the money for anyone seriously breeding companion animals (dogs, horses, hamsters, aquarium or pond fish, etc.). These fish should not be bred. All they do is cause problems.

When I get a nasty, agressive goldfish, I throw it out, even if I like its looks. Keeping it just makes life miserable for the other tankmates. I can't tell you how many times I've upset the balance of a peaceful tank by introducing a bully.

Many breeds of purebred dogs have just been trashed because breeders bred for looks only. These dogs make lousy pets, and many can't even perform the original function that they were originally bred for. What good is a sporting dog with no sense of smell?

So yes, I think that fish breeders should consider temperament, swimming ability, vigor and any other trait that contributes to the overall health of the fish and its community.

Having said all that, I know that many other kinds of fish are agressive and territorial. And that's OK. In the wild it's just the result of millions of years of natural selection, so it serves a purpose. I don't even care if wild goldfish, koi, or carp are agressive. I just don't want the ones in my tank or pond to be.

Just my 2-cents...

[bekko]

I think that fish breeders should consider temperament, swimming ability, vigor

You unwittingly select for swimming ability when you select for good conformation. To a large extent, you also select for vigor when you select for good conformation.

I don't get involved in the personal lives of my goldfish, but the temperament thing is perplexing. There is no doubt that long-fin metallic red/white ryukin have a propensity to be bullies and there sure seems to be a genetic linkage there. Strangely, we never hear about bully calico or short-tail ryukin. Sometimes we hear people say they have a bully oranda and I once heard of a guy with a bully ranchu. There are also stories about how a bully changed its ways when the tank mates or surrounding were changed. This makes you wonder whether it is nature or nurture or both. I suspect that even in the most peaceful situation there is a goldfish social order which we are not privy to, but have no idea why things would suddenly become violent. It's sort of like Jane Goodall's chimpanzees, isn't it.

-steve

[suphi]

I once had a bully ranchu (SVR) who used to live in his own tank for a while, then I added a few more fish. He would keep chasing new fish both male and female relentlessly until I had to put a tank separator in to keep him from stressing out other fish. He eventually became well-behaved after he developed SBD (don't they all). Is it breeding behavior or some sort of internal infection causing him to act wildly? Or Alpha male behavior which is frequently seen in mammals such as mice? No idea :)

[SeaWitch]

I have had "bullying" cases in three of my fish. The first one (a male fantail) was clearly food aggression and he eventually stopped (even though he is still a hog!). The second was a calico telescope, female, who was in a tank with another female oranda and a male ranchu, both very docile. She picked on them constantly so I put her in the tank with my big boy and girl and she stopped immediately and never started back up again.
This last one is also a male, calico, fantail and I have tried introducing new fish, using divider with another fish in the tank to get him used to being around other fish ( did that for a month) and NOTHING works. He picks on fish three times bigger than him, male and female...it doesn't matter.:youtellme: Also, it is not food aggression as he does it constantly, not just at feeding times.

[thomasn]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html?_r=1

[johnatoranchu]

Wow, I'm just glad there is a lot of water between me and you guys. I've hired a Greyhound bus and filled it with men in white coats. They will be calling on some of you soon but meanwhile I'll lock my door at night!!!!
Now, seriously folks, you will always be on dangerous ground if you credit animals with human attributes. In any group of animals, whether they be fur, feather or fin, there will always be alpha males and females which will frequently show their dominance through aggressive behaviour and remember that these ARE THE PRIME BREEDERS, THE MOST VIRILE. They behave in this way to preserve survival of the strongest and continuance of the breed. Nature is on their side.
I agree that this trait is best removed from companion/farm animals (that's what "domestication" is all about) but the goldfish is not a campanion animal in that sense of the word although the vast majority of them are naturally very passive. When we selected our dog we paid strict attention not only to its breed characteristics but also to the temperament of the pup, its siblings, its parents and we even met her grand mother and great grand mother. We wanted our dog to like people and other dogs and fit in with our life style, which she does extremely well - but the goldfish. Well. I honestly don't think that there is much chance of any of my goldfish jumping over the fence and biting my neighbours' children and as I don't take my goldfish for walks over the park there is little chance that they will meet and duff up anybody else's pet goldfish either!
One of this Country's best lines of calico and metallic Veiltails was lost, mainly, I believe, because the breeder practiced both severe inbreeding and hand spawning. He "successfully" bred virility out of his strain. If other goldfish breeders really did consider deliberately breeding out all signs of what appears to us to be bullying/aggressive behaviour either deliberately or unwittingly through handspawning they could also breed the virility out of their strains with obvious consequences.
Just going to lock my door.
John

[bigbettadan]

No need, I think it is crazy too.....LOL

Dan

[bekko]

oh, I was suppposed to put it here.....

an overly aggressive fish is one that physically harms the other fish.

Any definition is OK with me. However, one goldfish can intimidate another without ever making physical contact. I'm not sure how they do it but it's probably posture and the way the dominant fish swims. It's possible it is done chemically with pheromones or something like that. You can demonstrate this by watching behavior differences with different grouping of the same lot. In any case, a goldfish which is intimidated and spends all its time hiding in a corner will eventually develop health problems.

Goldfish are not too bad in this respect. When I was raising Banggai cardinals I found that a fish could be intimidated to death in a matter of days without ever being touched by the dominant individual. They don't have to wait to get sick, they can just die of fright.

I'm wondering if domestication has impacted aggressive tendencies in goldfish. Are they more aggressive or less aggressive than the ancestral Gibel carp ??

The link that thomasn provided raises additional things to ponder. Have goldfish been selected for tameness ?? With a thousand years of history, selection for tameness is likely to have occurred in an unwitting way. But, did selection for tameness have an impact on goldfish morphology the way it did in Belyaev's foxes and other domesticated animals ?? In species as diverse as jungle fowl and wolves, selection for tameness has come part-and-parcel with pedomorphosis (google it), dwarfness and giantism, changes in color, changes in tail shape, changes in the number of vertebrae, etc. See, for example,
http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=223

-steve

[rcarltonj]

More food for thought...

http://www.silvio-co.com/cps/articles/1999/1999jmurphy1.htm

[orandablue]

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2009/12/cuteness-200912

[BruceP]

"However, one goldfish can intimidate another without ever making physical contact."

Similar to some forum posters????? >:)

[Mikey V]

"However, one goldfish can intimidate another without ever making physical contact."

Similar to some forum posters????? >:)

hahahaha! Now where is that guy who fed eagles to his goldfish or something?

[orandablue]

goldfish(dog)fighting!? o.k. thats sic. Did someone say that ryukins can suck out eyes though!? The red n white devils?>:)