Oranda

[HNLim]

Please give your view. Is this what you will hope to own?
http://i46.tinypic.com/2cf4hhx.jpg

[small_ranchu]

Can you upload more pic? Video will be better to answer your question. :)

[BruceP]

I'd like to see a pic from a different angle. That pic makes it look VERY short for an Oranda but Im bettin' that it isnt as short as the pic makes it look.

[HNLim]

I will arrange for other pictures in a couple of days and maybe a video.

I have several pieces and they are all black with very long and erect dorsal fin and very long and broad tail. They have the typical body of a high-back ryukin. The tail set is drooping/hanging down, unlike those that we love in Asia. I believe most oranda lover in the West like.

I got my daughter to help me take the picture. Initially I tried to put 4 pieces and find it almost impossible for them to pose. They keep struggling at the bottom edge of the tank. It is almost midnight here in Singapore now so you will have to wait awhile.

[afnaveils]

It looks like a black ryukin with a headgrowth. I believe it is the Thai new style oranda and we've seen pictures of red and whites somewhere on this site.

[HNLim]

Ok manage to get another picture. So what style is this? Good enough for the UK standard?
http://i48.tinypic.com/2zjfkn7.jpg

[small_ranchu]

too short for me.

[suphi]

It looks like a humpback oranda is there's such a thing. The tail is definitely hanging down which is kind of unusual.

[bigbettadan]

It looks like a top view tail set to me........

Dan

[HNLim]

It looks like a humpback oranda is there's such a thing. The tail is definitely hanging down which is kind of unusual.
The fact that you can give a name to it means that there is such a thing. Isn't a hanging down tail what you guys are after?

[Veil Gal]

Lacking quality and true "breed/variety" type. Looks like it was put together with spare parts.

[bekko]

It's too good for the UK standard. No offense to John et al., but I think UK is out of step with the rest of the world when it comes to oranda.

-steve

[bigbettadan]

I honestly don't agree there. The UK standard wants a veiltail finnage plus an oranda head. It is hard enough to get perfect VT finnage as it is! Plus I don't see where every breed has to have super short bodies.... The tread in china seems to want to turn everything into a softball. JMO, as ryukins are a favorite breed of mine as well. I do like the tail on this black fish BTW and would like to see it from the top....

Dan

[OrandaDan]

looks like a cross between an oranda and a ryukin, as far as im aware there is no standard for such a fish! Re: English standard orandas, obviously these are show preferences, these orandas with veil are pretty hard to get hold of here, the majority of orandas I see here come from china and have a forked caudual.

[johnatoranchu]

It's too good for the UK standard. No offense to John et al., but I think UK is out of step with the rest of the world when it comes to oranda.

-steve

You're right Steve, we are out of step with the rest of the world - it's what we do best! We believe in making things difficult for ourselves and one of the reasons for our Oranda show standard, apart from a love of the Veiltail's shape and finnage, is that, rightly or wrongly, we try to encourage owner bred (or at least British bred) fish on the show bench. By having a veiltailed Oranda as our Oranda standard, hobbyists are encouraged to breed their own as they cannot be purchased from importers. Not great for vendors but superb for the hobby!!!!!!
John

[johnatoranchu]

Ok manage to get another picture. So what style is this? Good enough for the UK standard?
http://i48.tinypic.com/2zjfkn7.jpg

Hi Mr Lim (is it permissable to call you by a first name as this mode of address sounds very formal and unfriendly?)
The fish - lacks hood development
- the dorsal fin and tail are too short and the tail is forked, folded
and lacks substance
- the body is far too deep and the curvature of the dorsal contour
is too steep resulting in the caudal peduncle protruding from the
body in an ugly fashion.
- the fish has no colour
From a show point of view, it has nothing to commend it but hopefully its lack of colour and poor hood development suggest that it is a young fish. So, given the opportunity, would I buy it?
YES, YES, YES. To my eye, this fish illustrates the difference between a show fish and a potential breeding fish. Helped by Mother Nature's efforts to return our creations to wild Carp, there is a tendency in British Orandas (and indeed Veiltails too, both here and in the USA) for the dorsal contour to be shallow resulting in the body being too long and lean - we call it "racehorsey". This fish has an excessively short and deep body and I would happily breed this fish to my own in the hope of improving the body shape of my Orandas as my "ideal" body shape lies midway between the fish I presently produce and this "ugly" example. If this fish is one of your own breeding, I would be interested to hear if you intend to breed from it and if you do I would be very interested to see pictures of its offspring.
John

[SeaWitch]

This fish reminds me of some that I saw on the GFC auction from Ken; an oranda/ryukin "hybrid" (this was a while back), as they were described. However, there are some differences. I agree with John as far as the wen needs to be a little fuller, especially on top, and the body is too deep for me. However, I think this is an interesting fish and I do like the flowing tail.:exact:

[HNLim]

Hi Mr Lim (is it permissable to call you by a first name as this mode of address sounds very formal and unfriendly?)
The fish - lacks hood development
- the dorsal fin and tail are too short and the tail is forked, folded
and lacks substance
- the body is far too deep and the curvature of the dorsal contour
is too steep resulting in the caudal peduncle protruding from the
body in an ugly fashion.
- the fish has no colour
From a show point of view, it has nothing to commend it but hopefully its lack of colour and poor hood development suggest that it is a young fish. So, given the opportunity, would I buy it?
YES, YES, YES. To my eye, this fish illustrates the difference between a show fish and a potential breeding fish. Helped by Mother Nature's efforts to return our creations to wild Carp, there is a tendency in British Orandas (and indeed Veiltails too, both here and in the USA) for the dorsal contour to be shallow resulting in the body being too long and lean - we call it "racehorsey". This fish has an excessively short and deep body and I would happily breed this fish to my own in the hope of improving the body shape of my Orandas as my "ideal" body shape lies midway between the fish I presently produce and this "ugly" example. If this fish is one of your own breeding, I would be interested to hear if you intend to breed from it and if you do I would be very interested to see pictures of its offspring.
John
Calling me Lim would suffice and very friendly.

This fish is self-bred and is slightly below 4 months old. It is one of 4 pieces which is most likely going to be a black high-back oranda with a broad and low setting tail. I have only one batch of self-bred oranda and it has produced many variation including some long and some mid body specimens.

I will try to get a video of these 4 pieces of “ugly ducklings” and hopefully they will all turn out to be a “beautiful swan” in due course.

In the mean time this is the father.
http://i50.tinypic.com/2ueogsy.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/194cpw.jpg

This is the mother
http://i37.tinypic.com/350mjqu.jpg

I am just wondering how the father would fare in the UK competition?

[BruceP]

Mr. Lim........I reeeeeeeeeeeealy like that last black fish! I'd very much like to have a fish like that. Is this one you spawned? Thank you for sharing your great fish.

[johnatoranchu]

Hi Lim
The tail set is too high but the fish would score well on colour and body shape. In theory, the tail carriage could disqualify it but a lot would depend on the Judge and his interpretation of the rules and of course the quality of the other exhibits. I judged the Oranda class at one of the shows in the north of England in 2007 and had your fish been in that class then your fish would have won easily. However if it had been shown in the London show last September, I'm afraid it would not have featured in the awards as there were several "veiltailed" Orandas in the competition. I'm still trying to learn how to post pictures on this site and when I have, hopefully by next week, I'll post a line drawing of the British Standard.
Kind regards
John

[johnatoranchu]

Sorry, have just realised that I was commenting on the mother, the black fish.
Ideally the carriage of the perfect tail should be slightly lower than that of the red male but yes, it is good enough to win at our major shows.
John

[SeaWitch]

Mr. Lim........I reeeeeeeeeeeealy like that last black fish! I'd very much like to have a fish like that. Is this one you spawned? Thank you for sharing your great fish.

Bruce, you took the words right out of my mouth!:exact: I wouldlove to have the mother or the father! Actually, I would take the offspring, as well! But that black one....WOW!!!!! Stunning!!!!:worship:

[HNLim]

Mr. Lim........I reeeeeeeeeeeealy like that last black fish! I'd very much like to have a fish like that. Is this one you spawned? Thank you for sharing your great fish.
Thank you for your veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery kind words. Yes the mother is a 3rd generation self-bred oranda. The father is not self-bred but is bought when he was about 4 to 5 months old, round about the same size as the children. However he is I believe almost 3 years old now.

[HNLim]

I'm still trying to learn how to post pictures on this site and when I have, hopefully by next week, I'll post a line drawing of the British Standard.
Kind regards
John

1. Go to this site : http://tinypic.com (http://tinypic.com/)
2. Click on the "Browse" button and wait for a new window to appear
3. Double Click on the pictures or file you want to load and it will appear in the "File" box
4. Click on the green "UPLOAD NOW" BUTTON
5. Wait for a new screen to appear. The bigger your picture the longer the wait.
6. Go to the"IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards box" right click on the box and copy the file and paste it on your posting.

[bekko]

First, let me clarify that although I think the British oranda standard is out-of-step with the rest of the world, I still like the British standard very much.

Lim's first black fish has a very flat tail set, but the tips of the tail droop down. If it had stronger leading rays in the tail, it would be very butterfly-like. This, coupled with the very short peduncle and could make for a really striking top-view oranda of a style which we seldom if ever see. I do not normally like most top-view oranda because the transition from the belly to the peduncle is not a smooth curve. There is a broad belly, a narrow peduncle, then a broad tail. The contours just do not flow well. A short-body butterfly oranda would overcome this fault.

I am not crazy about the second black (the mother). John already said the tail is set high and it is also very open which makes the tail appear too short in both the side view and the top view. Also, fish like this are poor swimmers and waddle.

The first black has the best body. A line from the certer of the peduncle to the nose would cut the fish in half with the dorsal contour roughly equal to the ventral contour. The red one has a nice tail, but the body is not as well balanced from top to bottom. The mother black is intermediate.

All three are nice though.

-steve

[BruceP]

This is not directed at any one person. How can we 'stand in judgement' of these fish? They are in Singapore. Do you know what is expected in Singapore?? Certainly the standards in the US are different from the UK or Japan or anywhere else. Someone said the Chinese seem to want to make golfballs out of everything,,,,, well the Japanese and British want to make TOP Views out of everything!
How can we compare fish from such vast areas of the world?

[johnatoranchu]

This is not directed at any one person. How can we 'stand in judgement' of these fish? They are in Singapore. Do you know what is expected in Singapore?? Certainly the standards in the US are different from the UK or Japan or anywhere else. Someone said the Chinese seem to want to make golfballs out of everything,,,,, well the Japanese and British want to make TOP Views out of everything!
How can we compare fish from such vast areas of the world?

No Bruce, you are jumping the gun. What makes you think that we Brits "want to make TOP views out of everything". At British shows all goldfish, regardless of variety, are shown in plastic tanks AND ARE JUDGED AND VIEWED MAINLY FROM THE SIDE. I think that the discussions on Ranchu have confused you. There is a specialist Ranchu Society in the UK which has strong ties with Japan - that is Jinchu Kai UK. The Kai's shows are completely different to the normal British shows in that the Ranchu are exhibited in bowls, Japanese style. Now they are judged and view mainly from above. This thread however is about Orandas and with the UK's Standard demanding a high dorsal and a veiled tail hanging below the body it is difficult to imagine how such specimens can be viewed in any way other than FROM THE SIDE.
Whilst it is true that most traditional Japanese varieties have been developed from a top view perspective, repeating what"someone" apparently said about the Chinese and golf balls simple demonstrates how misinformation spreads. Buy some books on Chinese goldfish and you will see what I mean.
Lastly, no one on this site "is standing in judgement" on anything but IF we are asked for our opinion then we give it and with the best will in the world no one has to offer their fish up for judgement, they presumably want to knowing that there is no guarantee that all comments will be favourable.
John

[SeaWitch]

May I ask why alot of the Japanese fish have been developed from a top-view perspective instead of side view?:youtellme: Is it because they have more ponds there and develop the fish to show them in a pond setting?:youtellme:

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack.

[HNLim]

May I ask why alot of the Japanese fish have been developed from a top-view perspective instead of side view?:youtellme: Is it because they have more ponds there and develop the fish to show them in a pond setting?:youtellme:

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack.
It's good to "hijack" a thread once in a while to brighten up the discussion. After all what is the purpose of a goldfish forum?

It's all about keeping up with the times. Many people still prefer traditional opera and traditional ballet. The contemporary prefer to watch a modern play, movie or break-dancing. I used to like TVR but I have "broken" out of the box and have love to appreciate the "new".

Even the traditional TVR have been trying to keep up with the times by changing from wooden tubs to enamel bowls. Who knows someday they may use plastic bowls or even transparent bowl.

Personally, my view is that good goldfish should look good from the side and the top.

[bigbettadan]

Actually, I agree, a good ranchu looks good from the side and the top.... Even in Japan..... But you start with the tail... If doesn't have a good one, its not a good ranchu.

Dan

[HNLim]

Actually, I agree, a good ranchu looks good from the side and the top.... Even in Japan..... But you start with the tail... If doesn't have a good one, its not a good ranchu.

Dan
No point having a good tail and a lousy body, Agree?

[bigbettadan]

Of course. But one of the most important aspects that makes a ranchu a ranchu is its swimming movement.Tail/body comformation is vital....

Otherwise it might as well be a lionhead. Anyway I love lots of breeds of goldfish. I just want to preserve the the beauty that is the ranchu. There is room for all.

Dan

[Mikey V]

Hey guys,
I just picked up a red cap oranda earlier, and i'll post a pic soon after it gets settled, but i was wondering if the US standards favor a more Taiwanese compact body, or a longer fantail type body? I would think the more longer body would carry itself better and be less prone to SBD problems.
Thanks

[HNLim]

Hey guys,
I just picked up a red cap oranda earlier, and i'll post a pic soon after it gets settled, but i was wondering if the US standards favor a more Taiwanese compact body, or a longer fantail type body? I would think the more longer body would carry itself better and be less prone to SBD problems.
Thanks
The feeding regime of your fry from the onset will determine the outcome of the body profile. I call it the 3/3 rule.

[johnatoranchu]

May I ask why alot of the Japanese fish have been developed from a top-view perspective instead of side view?:youtellme: Is it because they have more ponds there and develop the fish to show them in a pond setting?:youtellme:

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack.

It's mainly about tradition, Nickie but having said that if you look at the traditional Japanese varieties - Ranchu, Jikin, Tosakin - they actually look more attractive when viewed from above. The Tosakin looks very strange indeed when viewed from the side. In truth glass sided vessels are relatively new in the scheme of goldfish keeping and when most of these varieties were being developed and refined they had to be kept in bowls and ponds: this was of course equally true in China. I guess that, commercially at least, China and other Asian countries have been quicker to exploit the "home aquarium" (the home of side view fish) market than the Japanese although there are interesting exceptions "to the rule" in that the Ryukin was developed by the Japanese yet is mainly a side view fish whereas the Butterfly has been one of the major "new" varieties to come out of China in recent years and that is a top view fish.
John

[johnatoranchu]

It's good to "hijack" a thread once in a while to brighten up the discussion. After all what is the purpose of a goldfish forum?

It's all about keeping up with the times. Many people still prefer traditional opera and traditional ballet. The contemporary prefer to watch a modern play, movie or break-dancing. I used to like TVR but I have "broken" out of the box and have love to appreciate the "new".

Even the traditional TVR have been trying to keep up with the times by changing from wooden tubs to enamel bowls. Who knows someday they may use plastic bowls or even transparent bowl.

Personally, my view is that good goldfish should look good from the side and the top.

I have a surprise for you Lim. The enamel bowls used at Jinchu Kai's main competition in Yokohama were looking the worse for wear in 2007 and they could not buy new ones. Imagine our surprise when we saw their new bowls last year - beautiful white shiney enamel bowls - or so we thought! The new bowls were in fact fibre glass.
John

[HNLim]

I have a surprise for you Lim. The enamel bowls used at Jinchu Kai's main competition in Yokohama were looking the worse for wear in 2007 and they could not buy new ones. Imagine our surprise when we saw their new bowls last year - beautiful white shiney enamel bowls - or so we thought! The new bowls were in fact fibre glass.
John
Well, I made 13 fibreglass bowls some 3 years ago and a LFS ask me for them to be sold to his customers. I still have one piece with me for remembrance as I have given up on TVR.

[billys]

Hi all,

New enamel bowls are available in the UK here http://www.heritage-gifts.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Falcon+Enamel+ 36cm+Wash+Basin

I think these are a bit smaller than what you normally see being used with fish. However I use these and they are very useful.

Best wishes Billy.

[HNLim]

Hi all,

New enamel bowls are available in the UK here http://www.heritage-gifts.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Falcon+Enamel+ 36cm+Wash+Basin

I think these are a bit smaller than what you normally see being used with fish. However I use these and they are very useful.

Best wishes Billy.
Those used in competition are 24 inches in diameter.