Infertile Egg!!!!!

[Ranchu Rancher]

I have had three mops full of eggs from two different groups of fish that were infertile. I even watched one of the groups spawn in one of my mops. So is it because they are young fish ? Or is there another reason.

Gregg

[nygold]

I'm looking for the same answer I watched my fish spawn into a mop and didn't get any fertilized eggs. Then I hand spawned them a week later and still nothing. I tried different tank temps, water changes, lots of air. I even had a friend come over who is a biology teacher and we got milt from the male and used a microscope to see if we had any viable sperm.
I't didn't work we could't see anything the microscope only went to 200X I believe we need a bit more magnification.
Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated.

[bluebelly]

I'm looking for the same answer I watched my fish spawn into a mop and didn't get any fertilized eggs. Then I hand spawned them a week later and still nothing. I tried different tank temps, water changes, lots of air. I even had a friend come over who is a biology teacher and we got milt from the male and used a microscope to see if we had any viable sperm.
I't didn't work we could't see anything the microscope only went to 200X I believe we need a bit more magnification.
Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated.
I have witnessed this many times. Some times it is the first spawn and the fish are immature sometimes the fish are older and they have not been stimulated, the males, to be fertile. On the farms when this happens they save the spawning water from a fertile spawn and put this water into the vats with the infertile fish.

[nygold]

Thanks bluebelly maybe that's it I had the female for over a year but this was her first spawn. She egged up and spawned 4 times. Once every 5 to 7 days.
She layed around 1500 to 2000 eggs each time. The male is a BIG boy 6 inch male Ryukin. So it looks like it might be the female from what your saying.
How many clutches will she lay until the eggs become more fertile?
I know there is no exact answer but a ballpark answer would be fine, if you have one that is.

[afnaveils]

In your case, I think the male may be at fault. He may have low sperm count or merely shooting blanks. If your female is blowing over 1500 eggs, IMO this may not be its first spawn, and she is over a year old too.

I had a female who had fry before and when one particular male was handspawned to fertilise her eggs another year, no egg was fertilised although there was milt.

[bluebelly]

[Tough to say, when i got Garys female metallic yellow it didnt spawn for him in three years. I heated her to 84 degrees for two weeks twice, she then spawned 4 times. I believe the heating raised her immunity levels if she had a virus or bacterial problems. Maybe the heat opened up her closed reproductive organs? His female and my male became the lead parents to millions of offspring. If you have proven breeders put her in with them for a while. She probably will be fertile at the next spawning.

[nygold]

In your case, I think the male may be at fault. He may have low sperm count or merely shooting blanks. If your female is blowing over 1500 eggs, IMO this may not be its first spawn, and she is over a year old too.


I think your right that's why I tried to use a microscope to see the milt up close. Soon my friend will come back with a more powerful one and we'll see for sure. The only other male Ryukin I have is young (less than a year old)
I'm going to check his milt as well. As for the female I checked my records and she will be 2 soon I had her since she was tiny. This is her first clutch for sure.

[harzan]

I seem to have a off and on experiences with hand spawns. I use atleast 2-3males to one female per bowl. One female seems to have a high rate of fertilized eggs. The other two are 90-98% NOT fertilized. The eggs come out very easily. These are year old fish.

I hand spawned 2 different varieties and both seemed to have a real hit or miss. Strange thing is that none are 100% NOT fertilized.

I let the eggs mix for 20-30 minutes...I tried for most of the day too...same results.

Do you thnk it is because of young females? I used to think it was the males, but now I think it is the females...or the eggs being too early or late.

Other ideas?

[Cincy Ranchu]

Are you using Too much water, 3/4" in a bowl with the male first always and then the female, and swirl with the fish in the bowl....

[harzan]

I do not think water should matter as ponds are way larger...I usually have 3 inches of water in a dish bowl and get the eggs out first...I know, I know....books say milt first, but have been doing it this way since the 4th grade. I have not had extreme failure to fertilize until now...the last couple of years. I wonder too if it is too cold where I live....everything is out doors, but I do not leave completely out in the open....I usually place under a pond or table to be out of the draft at night.

[johnatoranchu]

Harris, I am amazed that any of the eggs are fertilised if you hand strip the female first. It is generally accepted that milt is viable for minutes whereas eggs are viable for only a second or two as the moment an egg is laid it immediately sucks in water and seals itself which is of course the way the egg is fertilised with milt being in the water which is sucked in. It seems that no matter what scientists tell us there are always goldfish happenings which defy logic. I never hand spawn but those who do (here) tend to take milt first, swill it around in the bowl, but then strip the female and male together with their vents close together. Why not try milt first to see if fertility level is increased - with your luck you could get more than 100% fertility!!!!!!
I was watching golf on the television last week, the tournament being played in glorious sunshine in Haiwaii and given that we are cold and snow bound I couldn't help but feel a little jealous of you and Steve enjoying such a warm existence. I was therefore puzzled to see you memtion "cold" in your post. That made me wonder if your nights are cold and if so, and if the eggs are left outside in little water, it could be that the eggs are being chilled at night and it is that which is reducing viability.
(Will answer your private email in a day or so but I've got to rely on memory as I've deleted it! If you could send it to me again either via this site or to john@oranchu.com I would be grateful.
John

[harzan]

I will try that. I have never been in a rush to get them fertilized either. I just hate to waste the milt is there are few eggs. I know I tried it, but never remembered the result...

[harzan]

the odd thing is that the results are either close to 100% fertilized or not...and the not fertilized are not 100% not fertilized.

[sc569]

I agree with John. The eggs only have a few seconds to be fertilized. Hand spawning needs to have the male stripped first for the best fertilization rates.

Another possibility is that one of the breeders is infertile. Most likely it is the female. Males usually will give some viable sperm in enough numbers to fertilize a few eggs.

With females, if they have gone through some rough patches, the eggs could be all bad. You can tell by looking at the eggs a few hours after they have been laid. The bad eggs will have bad yolks - white curdled material inside the eggs. Unfertilized eggs will simply stay exactly the way they were laid.

If they are fertilized, you will see the first mitosis in a few hours. A dissecting scope is sufficient for this as the eggs are big.

[rcarltonj]

Hello All,

With all this talk of hand spawning, it started me wondering if any one has ever tried hand stripping the male and freeziing the milt for future use? This practice is quite common in other domesticated animals. Does it work for fish?

[bekko]

It's not hard. You need a cryoprotectant like glycerol. The larger hurdle is that you need a liquid nitrogen dewar for rapid freezing and storage.

Freezing eggs is more difficult but the techniques are getting better.

-steve

[harzan]

You guys are right, I believe...though only one day of trying. I had 3 pans of hand spawns and stripped the male first....10% or close to on all.

I will do the same from now on....

Thanks! I guess there are books for a reason.>:D<

[nygold]

I agree with John. The eggs only have a few seconds to be fertilized. Hand spawning needs to have the male stripped first for the best fertilization rates.

Another possibility is that one of the breeders is infertile. Most likely it is the female. Males usually will give some viable sperm in enough numbers to fertilize a few eggs.

With females, if they have gone through some rough patches, the eggs could be all bad. You can tell by looking at the eggs a few hours after they have been laid. The bad eggs will have bad yolks - white curdled material inside the eggs. Unfertilized eggs will simply stay exactly the way they were laid.

If they are fertilized, you will see the first mitosis in a few hours. A dissecting scope is sufficient for this as the eggs are big.

Great info sc569 I was looking for a way to find out if it's the male or the female that's giving me the problem. Excelent thank you.:worship:

[Virginia ranchu]

Check the archives on this site. Gary gave a great demo on handspawning last year. The best tip I picked up from him is to only have a small amount of water in the bowl. For one, the fish will lie still in about a half inch of water, and the sperm will be at a higher concentration when you express the female.

Rob

[nygold]

Check the archives on this site. Gary gave a great demo on handspawning last year. The best tip I picked up from him is to only have a small amount of water in the bowl. For one, the fish will lie still in about a half inch of water, and the sperm will be at a higher concentration when you express the female.


I have tried most of the tricks and any of the methods SHOULD have vielded some level of success. So far I have a zero fertility rate which leads he to believe it's a problem with the parents and not the method. Until sc569 posted the info on the egg showing a white curdled looking stuff inside the egg I couldn't find any info on how to tell if it was the female that was infertile.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Volume of water makes a big difference, here is the equivalent; before sunrize in a pond the fish start chasing and by the time you see them they have been chasing for hours, and each time they corner the female a little milt comes out. In hand spawning you get one shot for only a few seconds, thus the water volume ( and depth in a bowl) is a big deal...

When I have low fertility I make gel food and lace with vtamin E and wheat germ --- sometimes this works

GH

[sc569]

nygold,

Please post when you find out whether my statements are in line with your case. It will be nice to have confirmation from another source.

[harzan]

Ok...Thanks Gary. I took better notice to what I was doing....my bowl is about 4 inches tall and I have filling about half way.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Ok...Thanks Gary. I took better notice to what I was doing....my bowl is about 4 inches tall and I have filling about half way.

I am using about3/4" of water, they flop around for a few seconds and then lay still, typically I have three fish in the bowl,squeeze the males and leave in the bowl,swish with hand and then the female, I typically swish the eggs and the female at the same time. SPEED IS ESSENTIAL, the complete male and female procedure is < 30 seconds:me::yess:

[bekko]

Y'all know, there's a dry method too.

Dab the female with a moist towel and express the eggs into a dry bowl being careful not to let any water drip off your hands or the fish into the bowl. Then do the same with the male. If there is not enough milt to make a drop which will fall into the bowl just flick the milt into the bowl with your finger tip. Don't worry, it takes surprisingly little. Then mix the milt and eggs with your finger or a wing feather. After mixing, add water, swirl a bit, then pour them into the hatching container before they get too sticky.

The advantage is that you have a lot more working time. It's a good option when you want to cross a single female to several males and keep the eggs separate. It's also a good option when the female is squirting eggs everywhere and you have not yet even thought about which male to use.

The disadvantage is that you have to dab the fish dry and this will lead to fungal infections on the skin several days later. Use one of those polymer stress coat products immediately and then use some methylene blue the following day.

-steve

[Ranchu Rancher]

Yesterday morning the same fish were chasing. So I hand spawned them. Shallow water, male first and he had milt female next plenty of eggs repeated procedure with other male and again all the eggs are infertile. These fish are very young, they were from Paul when he was selling BBR. Could it be that although they have milt and eggs they are just to young to be fertile?


Gregg

[johnatoranchu]

Why hand spawn? Let then spawn naturally, that's a better test as to viability.
John

[Ranchu Rancher]

John: I did let them spawn , twice as a matter of fact and all the eggs were unfertilized so I tryed hand spawning just to see if it would make a difference and it did not.

Gregg