Email from BJB

[small_ranchu]

BJB,
I posted your email question here. Hope more people can help you.


I have a 30 gal. tank with 3 goldfish & one bottom feeder, about 3 weeks ago we did a complete change as the tank was not very clear! Now we have a total mess, I've removed the 3 fidsh as they looked like they were ready to die! I took a water sample to our local pet shop nd it read normal, our strips show high PH & Alkaine....we canot get the levels down and I'm afraid to put the fish back in! Can you help in anyway! Thanks

[Virginia ranchu]

When you did your complete water change, did you change the filter media also? I am wondering if you removed all the good bacteria and caused an ammonia spike.

Rob

[George Ludrosky]

Did you dechlorinate the water? What state are you in? Many water treatment plants are now using chloramines to make water drinking safe, but sodium thiosulphate (regular dechlor products main ingredient) will not remove them. You need a specific chlorimine remover to make the water safe.

What type of decorations, rocks, plants or such are in the tank? Any thing that may be toxic?

Did you use any type of cleaning product?

[BJB]

When you did your complete water change, did you change the filter media also? I am wondering if you removed all the good bacteria and caused an ammonia spike.

Rob
Did a complete change about 2 weeks ago, its possibe we removed the good bacteria, have been adding PHdown as it shows very high PH & Alkile! Have no idea how to get rid of this ammonia spike, we have no decent fish stores, only PetsMart, and half the time their employe's can't help with anything! Any ideas would be welcomed!
Bev

[BJB]

Did you dechlorinate the water? What state are you in? Many water treatment plants are now using chloramines to make water drinking safe, but sodium thiosulphate (regular dechlor products main ingredient) will not remove them. You need a specific chlorimine remover to make the water safe.

What type of decorations, rocks, plants or such are in the tank? Any thing that may be toxic?

Did you use any type of cleaning product?

I live in Mich. we have a well, so we don't have any chemicals that you menitioned. We have a water system, but that was installed over a year ago. I have glass rocks which I had before only mixed with stones, which I removed. A plastic plant & large rock purched from PetsMart, that was in tank for a long time. I did buy one new red plastic plant but the tank had already started to give me trouble! Cleaned with warm water. Added PH reducer & Alkaline reducer as thats whats showing high on the test strips! Should I just start over again? I have my fish out of the tank as they were not doig good. Bev

[Virginia ranchu]

I have never tested or adjusted my pH, and my fish don't seem to suffer. I think goldfish can tolerate a wide range of pH's, and unless you have an extreme situation, the swings in pH are more of a problem than the pH itself.

You should brush up on the Nitrogen Cycle to better understand the importance of maintaining a good bacterial population. Also, use a dechlorinator that also removes ammonia. I recommend Prime by Seachem.

Best of luck,

rob

[WakinAZ]

1) High pH and alkalinity are fine as long as they are stable. No more chemicals to alter this, please. It is extremely unlikely this is your problem.

2) Test for ammonia and nitrites daily until things stabilize. There is no acceptable reading other than zero for either of these. Add ammonia/nitrite remover such as Prime to correct.

3) As suggested above, do some reading and learn about the nitrogen cycle and testing. Do not rely on pet shop employees: too many disinterested teens and overzealous "experts" parroting things they've been told.

4) Even outside of having problems, you should be changing *part* of your water, vacuuming the substrate (gravel/beads/whatever), and replacing with dechlorinated fresh water weekly. 1/3 is a good minimum starting point. [a 100% percent water change is more stressful to the fish than what chemical/cosmetic good it does. I personally don't go over 75%.]

5) 3 goldish and a bottom feeder in a 30 gal is heading towards overstocked, unless all fish are tiny. Goldfish *are* bottom feeders and any other fish down there tend to get in the way, become aggessive towards the goldies, and just contribute more waste you don't need in a small system. Whatever this "bottom feeder" is, give it away. Two goldfish in a 30 would be OK to me. They will grow with proper care. [As you advance in the hobby, your space requirement per fish will increase as you become pickier and want nicer fish. I currently have 3 fish in a 75 and 5 in a 125, heading toward 2 and 3 as they grow. Seeing a huge fish moving through a large expanse of crystal clear water is what keeps me interested in the hobby.]

[George Ludrosky]

Have you had your well water and your system tested lately?

[BJB]

1) High pH and alkalinity are fine as long as they are stable. No more chemicals to alter this, please. It is extremely unlikely this is your problem.

2) Test for ammonia and nitrites daily until things stabilize. There is no acceptable reading other than zero for either of these. Add ammonia/nitrite remover such as Prime to correct.

3) As suggested above, do some reading and learn about the nitrogen cycle and testing. Do not rely on pet shop employees: too many disinterested teens and overzealous "experts" parroting things they've been told.

4) Even outside of having problems, you should be changing *part* of your water, vacuuming the substrate (gravel/beads/whatever), and replacing with dechlorinated fresh water weekly. 1/3 is a good minimum starting point. [a 100% percent water change is more stressful to the fish than what chemical/cosmetic good it does. I personally don't go over 75%.]

5) 3 goldish and a bottom feeder in a 30 gal is heading towards overstocked, unless all fish are tiny. Goldfish *are* bottom feeders and any other fish down there tend to get in the way, become aggessive towards the goldies, and just contribute more waste you don't need in a small system. Whatever this "bottom feeder" is, give it away. Two goldfish in a 30 would be OK to me. They will grow with proper care. [As you advance in the hobby, your space requirement per fish will increase as you become pickier and want nicer fish. I currently have 3 fish in a 75 and 5 in a 125, heading toward 2 and 3 as they grow. Seeing a huge fish moving through a large expanse of crystal clear water is what keeps me interested in the hobby.]


I added Prime, have had the fish out of the tank but put them back in today as amonia level looks normal, also alkaline is ok. only the PH is very high. will continue to add prime and nothing else as you said! What about live plants? Any advantage over plastic?:

[BJB]

[QUOTE=BJB;11000]I added Prime, have had the fish out of the tank but put them back in today as amonia level looks normal, also alkaline is ok. only the PH is very high. will continue to add prime and nothing else as you said! What about live plants? Any advantage over plastic?

[suphi]

I think live plants are better but goldfish will usually tear em apart.

Out of curiosity how high was your high pH, mine is between 7.8 to 8.0 (well water). Fish do fine in wide range of pH or temp, they just don't tolerate rapid change or fluctuation. I do large amount of water change at a time, 50-100%, and have to pay special attention to water temp otherwise fish would sulk right away. Also avoid water change after a large meal, they don't like fluctuating environments with full stomach and can get sick from that.

You can also forget about nitrogen cycle if you do large and frequent water change 2-3x/week. You tank will cycle very slowly (not that you really need it with this method), but you won't get high spikes of chemicals. More work, but water quality stays pristine at all time and fish don't get sick because everything remains stable.

[WakinAZ]

I added Prime, have had the fish out of the tank but put them back in today as amonia level looks normal, also alkaline is ok. only the PH is very high. will continue to add prime and nothing else as you said! What about live plants? Any advantage over plastic?:

For those of us playing at home :) , what is the "very high" pH number that gives you fits? Again, if you change water weekly (or more often), you don't have to worry about the pH or hardness or alkalinity, because they will not fluctuate much at all.

I would test every other day at this point to make sure those "normal" ammonia and nitrite level stay at ***zero*** Once you are confident the crisis has passed, maybe weekly tests, then just when something seems wrong. If you are using strips, consider trying the more accurate Aquarium Pharmaceuticals liquid test kits, sold at most major online retailers and at PetSmart.

[BJB]

For those of us playing at home :) , what is the "very high" pH number that gives you fits? Again, if you change water weekly (or more often), you don't have to worry about the pH or hardness or alkalinity, because they will not fluctuate much at all.

I would test every other day at this point to make sure those "normal" ammonia and nitrite level stay at ***zero*** Once you are confident the crisis has passed, maybe weekly tests, then just when something seems wrong. If you are using strips, consider trying the more accurate Aquarium Pharmaceuticals liquid test kits, sold at most major online retailers and at PetSmart.

It's me again.......trouble with my 3o gal tank and my 3 goldfish. Never got the problem really solved! It started in Nov. have tried EVERYTHING!!!! We now have our fish out of the tank, filled it Monday with fresh water, all leveals are fine and still the water is milky lookking, even without the fish in it!! We have the liquid test kit from PetSmart plus all other products they sell! I am ready to pull my hair out as the tank was beautiful for years, then it went bad over nite! We had it looking almost perfect but it would only last a few hours! Have tried Prime and a million other things but nothing works!!! Does anyone have any ideas?????

[Corrie]

Bev, have you tried letting the tank sit and run, don't do anything to it, and see how long it takes to clear up?

I read back, you said you have well water and high pH. Our water is well water too, deep wells, and it can take 4-5 days for the water to clear and the pH to drop. It can be over 9 at first, when you aerate for a few days it drops to a rock solid 8 then clears up.

Try that and use less Prime. If you have well water you really don't need it. Prime is a chloramine remover, that's chlorine and ammonia/um. It locks up ammonia by forming formalin. The formalin can kill your bacteria if you use too much, the bacteria you're trying to start.

Corrie

[Cincy Ranchu]

Seems to me a high pH and cloudiness suggests super saturated carbon dioxide. I have seen this with other well watered aquariums, you porobably need to let the water stand and aerate over night. The aeration will drive off the excess CO2, and adjust the pH as the alkalinity changes.
If you want to detail this look at a clas:exact:sic Limonolgy text by Wetzel, read the section on marl lakes in Michigan, chemical cycle on alkalinity is very detailed.

[George Ludrosky]

I think live plants are better but goldfish will usually tear em apart.

Out of curiosity how high was your high pH, mine is between 7.8 to 8.0 (well water). Fish do fine in wide range of pH or temp, they just don't tolerate rapid change or fluctuation. I do large amount of water change at a time, 50-100%, and have to pay special attention to water temp otherwise fish would sulk right away. Also avoid water change after a large meal, they don't like fluctuating environments with full stomach and can get sick from that.

You can also forget about nitrogen cycle if you do large and frequent water change 2-3x/week. You tank will cycle very slowly (not that you really need it with this method), but you won't get high spikes of chemicals. More work, but water quality stays pristine at all time and fish don't get sick because everything remains stable.

I agree that Live Plants are the best. They not only look good, provide "nibble" stuff for the fish but they also help to keep the water quality stable.

[BJB]

Bev, have you tried letting the tank sit and run, don't do anything to it, and see how long it takes to clear up?

I read back, you said you have well water and high pH. Our water is well water too, deep wells, and it can take 4-5 days for the water to clear and the pH to drop. It can be over 9 at first, when you aerate for a few days it drops to a rock solid 8 then clears up.

Try that and use less Prime. If you have well water you really don't need it. Prime is a chloramine remover, that's chlorine and ammonia/um. It locks up ammonia by forming formalin. The formalin can kill your bacteria if you use too much, the bacteria you're trying to start.

Corrie

We do have a well water, but had a water system put in several years ago! Don't know if that takes care of all bad chemicals found in water! We took the fish out on Monday, have not put them back in! Water was changed that day, not complete but 80% maybe. Every day it gets a little more milky looking! PH is about 7, and everything else is checking out ok! I will continue to leave the fish out, but how can new bacteria get started? This is all new to me, when we set the tank up 2 years ago we just filled the tank and let it set a few days then put the fish in, have never had these problems! I will start reading up on it! What about live plants? Do you think they help? Also someone mentioned a heater?? Thanks for any help from anyone!!!!!!!

[Corrie]

We do have a well water, but had a water system put in several years ago

Is it a water softener? Do you add salt to it to make it work?
It might need servicing.

Bev, do you have an outside faucet that does not go through the water "system" for the house? One that you would use to water the yard? a hose?
If you do, try bi-passing the house system and use water directly from the well.

The bacteria you need are every where, you have them already. You just need to let them have time to grow.

It you can, use straight from the well water, try that.

Good luck
Corrie

[TheTruth]

It's me again.......trouble with my 3o gal tank and my 3 goldfish. Never got the problem really solved! It started in Nov. have tried EVERYTHING!!!! We now have our fish out of the tank, filled it Monday with fresh water, all leveals are fine and still the water is milky lookking, even without the fish in it!! We have the liquid test kit from PetSmart plus all other products they sell! I am ready to pull my hair out as the tank was beautiful for years, then it went bad over nite! We had it looking almost perfect but it would only last a few hours! Have tried Prime and a million other things but nothing works!!! Does anyone have any ideas?????

never change water and filter at the same time.i would suspect paracites or other disease