I got EGGS!

[orandablue]

Project light blue oranda cross overs "hopefully" underway! Can you use TOO much Methaline blue?

[bigbettadan]

Not in my experience.......

Dan

[orandablue]

It has been awhile. What is the ideal temp for hatching eggs?

[johnatoranchu]

It has been awhile. What is the ideal temp for hatching eggs?

68F. Methelene blue isn't really necessary.
John

[bigbettadan]

It is necessary for goldfish, but unfortunately it is for bettas in moderately hard water... Breeding goldfish is so much less a hassle than bettas, no reliance on the male for intial husbandry.....

Dan

[bigbettadan]

Sorry I ment not necessary for goldfish...

Dan

[SeaWitch]

Congrats on your eggs!!!!

Not to steal your topic but I have a quick question: What is the Methelene Blue used for exactly?

[marlin08]

It's supposed to prevent fungus...

[orandablue]

Why would you not want to kill fungus on new eggs? Every time I didnt use it I got lots of fuzz! There is alot of fish crap in with my eggs now,gross...I am trying a new method. But The methylene blue is the only thing that would give the eggs a chance. And thank you sea witch! I always get excited. With this surprise batch I handled them less just threw all the crap in a 5 with the meth. With these warm temps last night they (9fish) where going nuts.! Can't beat mother nature. I had even dropped the temp in the tank earlier!

[afnaveils]

I got eggs too this morning from my Bristols but I did a stupid mistake. I was leaving for work and noticed spawning. I used a kitchen basin, took the time to equalise temperature, strip the male and then the female, got eggs ... but completely forgot to put Aquasafe to remove chlorine. Will there be any fry, I don't know?:youtellme:

[orandablue]

If the chlorine amount in your water didnt mess up the sperm and fertilizing process, which I don't know how , if chlorine kills fish sperm, then maybe!?? I know if I pull eggs too soon they do not have a high fertility rate. After they are pulled ,and "marinated, as I call it, then a little chlorine water wash is administered. However I did not do that this time. Also I never stripped before. Never hurts to let em sit a couple!

[afnaveils]

I just need to wait a few days to know if there is any fertilized egg. And if there is, wait a little bit longer to see if the fry were affected in any way.

[Virginia ranchu]

Hey Gerard,

I have taken mops with fertile eggs and put them into tap water with no problem (fry hatched even though I didn't dechlor). Whether the chlorine inactivates the sperm is a good question. Please let us know.

Methylene blue isn't necessary if fertility is high, but if the eggs are close together, and fertility is low, fungus can spread from infertile eggs to the fertile ones.

Rob

[afnaveils]

In the kitchen basin, I first put a mop with some eggs in the non-dechlorinated water. I proceeded with the hand-spawn. The male had fair amount of milt.

Today, I find that the fertility is low. Some eggs on the mop were fertilized and some eggs from the handspawn were also fertilized. The conclusion is difficult to draw. Many possibilities: the male's sperm was not good enough, the chlorine affected the eggs on the mop and from the handspawn, the sperm was inactivated by the chlorine, part of each.:youtellme:

Now will the fertilized eggs give normal fry?:youtellme: I'll just have to wait and see.

Rob, you mentioned that fertilized eggs survived undechlorinated water. How were the fry? Thanks!

[Virginia ranchu]

Gerard,

I can't say that I performed any sort of controlled experiment to judge the effects of the chlorine on the developing fry. All I can say is that I didn't notice any remarkable difference between these fry and my usual hatches.

I do think that hatching temperature makes a difference. I believe a lower temp., like 68F is better than higher temps. The fry develop more slowly, but seem hardier and more uniform when they hatch.

Rob

[orandablue]

I am waiting the hatch! Some eggs are white but no fuzz. I have had white eggs hatch too. But lots of clear eggs with lil slivers of fish in em! I am trying a filter turned way down on a 5 gallon. No bubbler. Am hoping fry dont get sucked to the sponge on it. Watching carefully. Still got the methalyne in there. Once they hatch will slowly start removing the blue. by replacing water. No hatched bbs. Can I just feed frozen daphnia?
my temp is 76. And yes they do seem to hatch quicker in higher temps.
*
I do think that hatching temperature makes a difference. I believe a lower temp., like 68F is better than higher temps. The fry develop more slowly, but seem hardier and more uniform when they hatch.*
What do you mean by "more uniform fry"?

[Virginia ranchu]

The methylene blue will kill the bacteria in your filter (sponge filter?), so you should probably try to have another seasoned sponge filter handy, and preferably a larger aquarium for raising the fry, like 20 gallons.

Newly hatched goldfish cannot eat frozen daphnia. Once free swimming, they can eat newly hatched brine shrimp. I have also had some success with the "First Bites" food from Hikari, but I would only use as a supplement to the live baby brine shrimp. This is a baby fish food. You can quickly wean them onto decapsulated brine shrimp eggs and eventually crumbled flake, but you'll need the baby brine for the first 2-3 weeks minimum.

By uniform, I mean all the fry are well-shaped, approx. the same size and swimming. At higher temps, I notice some fry hatch too early and are smaller. These fry may lay on the bottom and are never able to swim.

Rob

[bigbettadan]

Atisions betta starter.... is a good first dry food. it is smaller than first bites and is made with BS....... Of course anyone that is going to breed fish should invest in a good brine shrimp hatcher........

Dan

[Virginia ranchu]

If you think hatching baby brine shrimp is too complicated, or if you don't have a brine shrimp hatchery, you can also do this by using a shallow rectangular food saver container (about 1 quart size). If you add the brine solution to this, just sprinkle some brine shrimp eggs on the surface. Do not aerate, but put the dish under a desk lamp to keep warm. When the brine shrimp hatch, the will collect in the brightest corner, and can be removed with a turkey baster and fed to the fish. It's best to run these through a brine shrimp net, but a little salt solution added the tank shouldn't matter too much if you are doing water changes.

Rob

[orandablue]

I was being lazy but got a hatchery up n going. I have a good batch of fry so the hatchery is up and running....

Here's some fry pictures:

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/IMGP4661-1.jpg

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/IMGP4662-1.jpg

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/IMGP4672-1.jpg

[orandablue]

Do the fry need 12 hrs of light?or more? Do they need a good dark period every night?

[Virginia ranchu]

Wow, those are awesome photographs!

The fry definitely do not need 12h of darkness. If your lights are on timers, you might want to give them 7 hours of dark, but I don't think having the lights on all the time will hurt them. The more light hours they have, the more they will be able to feed, and they will grow faster.

Rob

[orandablue]

they are eating like parrhanas! I am worried about some swimming, barely visible "bugs" that dart about then cling to the glass.!??They look white. I was wondering if I should pre-emptive strike with Prazi?? Also is it o.k. to use Ammo-Lock in a fry tank??I have to leave them for a couple days over xmas. :youtellme:

[Virginia ranchu]

I wouldn't worry about the "plankton". If the fry are feeding well, then I'd say you don't have a problem. I tend to avoid chemical treatments as long as the fish look okay. Fry are more sensitive to chemicals and what may be therapeutic for adults can kill the fry pretty quick.

rob

[orandablue]

any tips for feeding whilst away for three days? Need to invent automated bbs feeder! Hmmm.

[Virginia ranchu]

You are better off letting them go hungry for a few days than risking polluted water by overfeeding. Try to get them eating some baby fish food before you go. Since you probably won't have baby brine ready to go when you return, they'll have to settle for powdered food until the brine shrimp hatch.

Rob

[orandablue]

Yes the tank is cycling now! Daily, twice daily WC's. Maybe just some crushed flake in auto feeder. or not when I leave. But I am trying to keep the bbs alive by feeding them crushed algae wafers! I know they eat the bacteria that grows. Is this too risky to do? Will I pollute with this feed style? (too much bacteria?) Is the bbs that is older not as nutritional? I am throwing in live plants also and maybe that is a trick for healthy babies. I am also using a bit of water from the adult tank when doing WC thinking maybe hormones are in it to help growth. (I have not done this before) :coffee:

[Virginia ranchu]

Yes, I think your plan sounds risky. If you add a couple of teaspoons of salt per gallon (to the goldfish tank), this will extend the survival of the brine shrimp for a few hours (in the goldfish tank), but they will eventually die in freshwater. The strategy is good for feeding fish in the morning and allowing them to eat brine shrimp during the day while you are away from the house. However, even a small amount of salt may kill any plants in the tank. Left in the brine solution with aeration, the brine shrimp will be a smelly mess by the end of three days. You can hatch some extra, and then freeze them live in an ice cube tray. The fresh frozen baby brine can be fed to the fish when you return home.

I don't think bacteria are a real significant food source for the fry, but if you have a seasoned sponge filter, stuff like paramecium may give them some food.

[orandablue]

thats a brilliant idea! Thanks.def will freeze some.

[orandablue]

Some of the fry are very white. Would these be calico color? I am wondering if they might be pearlscale! (wouldnt that be nice) I know someone here breeds pearls....

[afnaveils]

In the kitchen basin, I first put a mop with some eggs in the non-dechlorinated water. I proceeded with the hand-spawn. The male had fair amount of milt.

Today, I find that the fertility is low. Some eggs on the mop were fertilized and some eggs from the handspawn were also fertilized. The conclusion is difficult to draw. Many possibilities: the male's sperm was not good enough, the chlorine affected the eggs on the mop and from the handspawn, the sperm was inactivated by the chlorine, part of each.:youtellme:

Now will the fertilized eggs give normal fry?:youtellme: I'll just have to wait and see.

Rob, you mentioned that fertilized eggs survived undechlorinated water. How were the fry? Thanks!

I got about 125 to 150 fry. They look healthy, eating and swimming.

[orandablue]

I never get so many fry. (need mops perhaps) Out of a surprise spawn, temp dropped in ohio then warmed up suddenly. I am just hoping for a few pearlscale. How old do males have to be before they can...spawn for real??? Maybe at 1 year? I don't think my fry from early spring are really doing much, just chasing.>:) Congrats on kitchen mop fry! (Bleach fry!) Alot of mine where deformed in spring but I think I was handling them too much. I was crazy turkey basting them out individually and rinsing them etc. My method now is much "broader". .....I need to design mops that I like. I think I would want the mops to be in the tanks for awhile..when do you drop them in? Would put them in the night before the spawn? Can I make mops out of shredded silk? (to be cleaner)

[Cincy Ranchu]

Tester on this page is a great Pearlscale breeders.

Try mops out of nylon yarn tied to a wine cork!!!!

[orandablue]

not sold on nylon mops. Does'nt a plastic,like plastic plants or silk work as well? Shredded silk bunched up n tied to the cork? Nylon???silk threads??? Hmmmm......

My white babies have different stomach area that is clear and dips below them (clear extended area underside of fry) differently. I am wondering if this is pearlscale or something? Will get pics.
I am not sure who did what in that tank..Good practice run to get ready for spring though!
Gettin it down.~~~ Going to build a new hatchery of sorts. Need to design the "station" from a t.v. stand I found. Get more tanks and better hatch and transport system. I need to move fry to a cycled tank once the Methalyne blue phase and hatching is done. ....I guess i could just dump them into a cycled tank...
Goal_----Less deformed fry!

[bigbettadan]

I do wine corks and yarn. It works well, and, well, I like wine...LOL
Dan

[orandablue]

are these normal??Clear stomach extensions that I have never seen before!!?? http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/IMGP4814.jpg

[orandablue]

first signs of a dorsal fin today. Did two culls so far. Still don't know what the stomach extensions are:youtellme:

[orandablue]

I think I have pearlscale/blue oranda cross. Which is awesome because I am on my way to blue pearlscales. It is a 50/50 pearl/normal looking fry hatch. I am very excited about pearl babies! The extended belly babies are whiter than the others, or many of them are. The darker fry are normal bellied. Can someone tell me if I am wrong about this belly drop!?

[orandablue]

BTW I tried a cork n yarn mop and just threw it in and this morning it had eggs in it! I threw it out of the tank before i realized this...oops. I will see if this killed the eggs for good. But hurray for wine and mops!

[afnaveils]

are these normal??Clear stomach extensions that I have never seen before!!?? http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/IMGP4814.jpg

This looks normal to me. The fry just don`t have food in its stomach making it looks clearer than usual.

[Veil Gal]

What type of camera are you using to get such a detailed close up photo of your fry?

[orandablue]

The lens is the magic. It is a Tamron SP 90mm Macro (Model 52BB). This lens is part of the Adapall-2 system of universal mount lenses from the 1980s. You can find the lens an the proper Adaptall-2 mount for your digital SLR on ebay, or a local used camera store.
The camera is a Pentax K10D.

[orandablue]

I love the cork mop style. (Yarn tied to a wine cork) Just got white acrylic/wool yarn. It was like $5.00!
So it has come to my attn. that my blk/wht/tricolor pearlscale is a male.
SO~I think the fry are pearlscale chocolate pom pon mix! Which means...I have about 25 pearlscale pom pon mixed fry that could later produce chocolate? and or calico pom pon Hamanishiki pearlscales. Which would be nice. All I know now is there's alot of calico fry that have tails like the calico pearlscale that I have. There are some bronze fry which if pearlscale is dominant would be AWESOME to have bronze pearlscales! Or does this not work?
I also just got too new small calico pearlscales because they have alot of dark/blk/blue on them but they are not Hamanishiki.

[khelawanb]

I really enjoyed reading this thread, and the pics are great. Can't wait to see them grow. :worship:

[orandablue]

Narrowing down the fry. 14 left in all. From two spawnings. Very odd calicos but really bright! Some super lemmon orange!? And blk n whites. Half bronze/ half calico. Look like pearlscale body type.Straight backs. Flukes are killin me with this batch! Is it because it is winter??Just bad luck. Still they are looking good. Trying to get good pics.
{chocolate/pearlscale mix=bronze chocolate and calicos.} ??

[orandablue]

Project blue-chocolate oranda pom pom project is REALLY underway NOW! My very first Oranda I ever hatched (1 yr ago) is spawning! With a male from a later spawn (less than 1 yr old) Lippy (bronze carries blue) and a single tail matte ryukin(carries chocolate)!
They are both from the same chocolate pom pom female. I am hoping for some interesting pom pom mixes! YAY! :coffee::coffee:

[orandablue]

Oranda "Lippy" is 9 months old. X Matte ryukin 8 months old

[johnatoranchu]

Project blue-chocolate oranda pom pom project is REALLY underway NOW! My very first Oranda I ever hatched (1 yr ago) is spawning! With a male from a later spawn (less than 1 yr old) Lippy (bronze carries blue) and a single tail matte ryukin(carries chocolate)!
They are both from the same chocolate pom pom female. I am hoping for some interesting pom pom mixes! YAY! :coffee::coffee:

It is clear that you are simply guessing your fish's genetic background! For example, Chocolate is metallic and Matts cannot be produced from metallics; therefore you cannot have "a single tail matte Ryukin (carries chocolate) which was produced from a chocolate Pom Pon. You cannot tell if a goldfish "carries" an unseen colour/characteristic until you have actually test mated it with another fish of known genetic background which you know will produce offspring which will prove whether or not the fish was in fact a carrier. This cannot be achieved over night.
Goldfish genetics are complicated enough without mixing so many variables. I'm sorry but someone has got to tell you, you simply do not have sufficient knowledge of basic goldfish genetics. If you are really interested in goldfish genetics begin by reading a few books until you have a basic understanding at least of metallics, calicos and matts and how each of these scale groups is produced and relates/interacts with every other scale group. If you are particularly interested in metallic blue and chocolate then gain experience of both by spawning chocolate x chocolate and blue x blue for a few generations and learn how each colour developes; you'll get surprises along the way.
John

[orandablue]

First the reason I am on THIS board is because I want people to "tell me"'! I don't want a board that says how pretty my fish are I KNOW their pretty! And yes they are named FLUFFY! So I thank you for reading my post.
I want a panel that says, that fish is ugly but might be bred with this fish to produce this or that. OR forget that mix.
Enough said I have read the Hess Jason Smartt books. I will get them and read them again. As I told Blue Belly I learn from hands on experience.
Therefore YES i should start by 'line breeding' not just tooling around.
I do not know how you personally got into the business of gf breeding but I have stumbled here. The only thing anyone in my family has ever bred are cows.
Maybe I have "polluted" this board with my ignorance!
If so I would always expect to be corrected. That IS why I am here!
And not there.
Now how did I get a matte single tail ryukin!? chocolate pom pom mettalicXcalico ryukin=matte ryukin!?
Maybe there is a very slim chance of getting what I want and I shall just line breed but right now I do not have the doubles of pom pom I would need.
I know a mettallic blue and mettalic chocolate=metallic bronze. both recessives cancel the colors out. However it was my understanding that these offspring 'carry' the recessive genes to make the blue and chocolate and if lucky make these colors together. {if bred together}
and that the pom pom would also be carried and be expressed in F2 crosses.??
I guess I will have to look at the books some more because no one actually wants to help explain this stuff.
or it is a secret!??

[johnatoranchu]

First the reason I am on THIS board is because I want people to "tell me"'! I don't want a board that says how pretty my fish are I KNOW their pretty! And yes they are named FLUFFY! So I thank you for reading my post.
I want a panel that says, that fish is ugly but might be bred with this fish to produce this or that. OR forget that mix.
Enough said I have read the Hess Jason Smartt books. I will get them and read them again. As I told Blue Belly I learn from hands on experience.
Therefore YES i should start by 'line breeding' not just tooling around.
I do not know how you personally got into the business of gf breeding but I have stumbled here. The only thing anyone in my family has ever bred are cows.
Maybe I have "polluted" this board with my ignorance!
If so I would always expect to be corrected. That IS why I am here!
And not there.
Now how did I get a matte single tail ryukin!? chocolate pom pom mettalicXcalico ryukin=matte ryukin!?
Maybe there is a very slim chance of getting what I want and I shall just line breed but right now I do not have the doubles of pom pom I would need.
I know a mettallic blue and mettalic chocolate=metallic bronze. both recessives cancel the colors out. However it was my understanding that these offspring 'carry' the recessive genes to make the blue and chocolate and if lucky make these colors together. {if bred together}
and that the pom pom would also be carried and be expressed in F2 crosses.??
I guess I will have to look at the books some more because no one actually wants to help explain this stuff.
or it is a secret!??

Start with the basics. Metallic x metallic = metallic
metallic x calico = metallic and calico
calico x calico = metallic, calico and matt
matt x matt = matt
matt x metallic = calico
Even though your single tail Ryukin may be virtually colourless causing you to believe that it is a matte as it was produced from metallic x calico it will be calico.
Be very careful about using the descriptions "dominant" and "recessive" when considering goldfish genetics as, unlike with birds and animals, goldfish genetics is simply not that simple and straight forward. Such descriptions might be appropriate with varietal characteristics like Pom Pons for example and if you breed your siblings together you will almost certainly produce some youngsters with enlarged nasal septa but you might have to do a number of generations before real pom pons are produced in reasonable numbers.
Colours are however very different and extremely complicated and it's difficult to classify colours as being either 100% recessive or 100% dominant - look at Lim's Orandas on this site where the same parents are producing brilliant reds and velvety blacks. Most hobbyists with a reasonable understanding of genetics would find this difficult to explain.
Don't think of metallic bronze being necessarilly dominant or metallic chocolate and metallic blue being necessarily recessive. Remember a metallic bronze produced from "coloured" metallic parents could still be carrying the decolouring gene and therefore could well decolour at some stage, maybe after 2, 3 or 4 years or indeed even longer. If they do decolour then perhaps changing to orange/red is the most likely outcome.
There have been a number of threads/posts discussing metallic blues, Read the posts by contributors who have actually BRED this colour themselves and glean what you can from their experiences - the variety is irrelevant.
Unfortunately most information available to people with an interest in goldfish colour genetics is based on academic theory rather than through closely monitored practical breeding programmes as even large commercial undertakings are unlikely to set aside acres of water and decades of time to really investigate what happens when you cross colour A x colour B, particularly if no new and readily saleably offspring are produced at the F1 or F2 stages.
When hobbyists have an "urge" to experiment, I always suggest that they experiment with body shapes, finnage configurations and/or "varietal" characteristics as it is much easier to plot those genetic paths and require less time and space than when experimenting with colour. In your case, perhaps creating a line of single tailed Pom Pons could be an exciting and worthwhile venture in itself but as far as colour is concerned - just go with the flow. Calicos have "instant" colour and as far as metallics are concerned well simply concentrate your efforts on using those fish which decolour at an early age, regardless of what colour that happens to be.
John

[bluebelly]

My crosses with yellow are in their third year. At about two half the fish turned tangerine .. About six months later the brothers and sisters that were left all turned bright yellow. If I would have culled at first decoloring I would not have yellow comets and yellow veils. I knew they would be turning just didn't know how long I would have to wait. Most phillies take two years.

[orandablue]

Thanks for the tips n insight. Recessives are so super tricky. Color changes are so exasperating, or fun...or RUBBISH! This fishy business is turning into a real MARRIAGE!! To quote Fiddler on the Roof, "I think i better think it out again!":coffee:

[bekko]

I have to keep reminding myself that all the low-hanging fruit has already been picked and if it were easy to do, then someone would have already done it. It is difficult to get something new and attractive in the first generation. To make something new and attractive requires thoughtful planning and a commitment to a half-dozen generations of effort. With luck, those will be goldfish generations, not human generations.

-steve

[BruceP]

With luck, those will be goldfish generations, not human generations.
-steve


Amen to that...... :exact:

[orandablue]

Anyway~~~just for the record my young fry are FERTILE!!!! Not sure of this breeding outcome but 9 month old "lippy" is fertile and bred with a 8 month old male! Both my own f1 spawn! {no steroids or color enhancing drugs where administered on these fish}:yeahbaby:

[BruceP]

Congrats! Hope you get some nice fish from them.

[orandablue]

man are they lookin good! http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/IMGP5006.jpg

[orandablue]

Moved them from 5 gallon to 10 gallon. About 40 fry. Will cull tomorrow at 'one week mark. :-*
:yess:On another note the long awaited {oranda pom pom} mix is really underway! My two F1's are making F2's!!! Finally the 'right' fish got together! Thank you winter snow storm! Man are my fish exhausted. I am going to have to throw some snow on them to *chill* them out~~

[orandablue]

So excited I just wanted to post my recent results. My F2 blue oranda X chocolate pom pom fry have produced what I think is the light blue color *phoenix blue* (with potential for pom poms) and or wen AND some orange-ish fry that may be the chocolate colouring (with potential for wen and pom pom)! YAY!!! will post pics later or start a blog. It only took a year to get these guys! But blue fish are worth it*

[small_ranchu]

can't wait to see your result !!!