judging ranchu sideview

[bigbettadan]

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww151/bigbettadan/ranchusideview.jpg

I thought this pic might help, since the subject comes up.......

Dan

[bigbettadan]

I put this link to this thread on another disscussion, but since it fits here well too.......

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/in...showtopic=3385


Judging is a process of selection. I go thru a simular process judging bettas, and train my apprentices this method as well.

[bigbettadan]

see if this link works better.....

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3385

[Lari]

Your links don't work.

By who's standard is the tail being higher than the back grounds for disqualification?

I can't find that particular point mentioned in the AGA standards, and while I admit it's been a while since I looked at the other listed standards, can't remember seeing that point listed as grounds for disqualification and would like to see where it is stated and by whom.

[HNLim]

If the tail being higher than the back disqualify the ranchu, then this one should be disqualified.
http://i45.tinypic.com/300fode.jpg

[bigbettadan]

These are Japanese standards..... not AGA. This club (ARS) is using Japanese standards.... BTW...... if the tail is too high, the tail will be be poor from the top......

I don't agree with you about the tail being over the highest point on the back on that picture. Take a ruler and look.........

Dan

[bigbettadan]

Oh, that link is for goldraffle forums, you may need to be a member to look. Sorry about that.....

Dan

[opera]

These are Japanese standards..... not AGA. This club (ARS) is using Japanese standards.... BTW...... if the tail is too high, the tail will be be poor from the top......

I don't agree with you about the tail being over the highest point on the back on that picture. Take a ruler and look.........

Dan

Dan,

Thank you for posting the picture. You have the sharp eyes. The tail does indeed not higher than the back.:worship:

Opera

[Lari]

So how is it decided which Japanese standards to adopt and which ones to ignore?

I've been told more than once that the Japanese and Chinese could care a fig if there are dual anal fins...but it's auto disqualification here.

Seems there should be some consistancy on what is adopted as grounds for disqualification and what isn't.

[suphi]

There's only one Japanese standard as far as I know.
http://www.extreamranchu.com/mc/scoop_detail.php?a_id=56&ag_id=1

Check out photos from various ranchu competitions in Japan, Thailand, and Singapore. This should give you a basic idea of what a top-notched ranchu should look like (talking about TVR here).

For TVR, single anal fin is ok for a fish to enter a competition since you don't really see anal fin from top view in a good fish. For SVR (lionhead), double anal fin is usually required to enter a contest but the standards varie since there're so many variations of SVR (lionhead, lionchu, japanese lionhead, etc.).

[bigbettadan]

I would add that a ranchu with a very high tail set is going to have other tail conformation/swimming problems, as well as have poor tail spread from the top, and will not be competitive anyway againist good japanese(tvr) fish.

Dan

[Lari]

Suphi,
Thank you for the link. I see the part about the anal fins being acceptable in Japan, so it reinforces the point I'm trying to make. In the US and UK Single anal is completely unacceptable and grounds for disqualification in a show.

However, I don't see where it tells about the tip tail being above the back is grounds for disqualification? Perhaps I'm missing something in the translation?

My point is that if it's decided to follow a particular standard then it should be the whole standard, not just whatever bits and pieces of it a particular group decides to adopt.

[bigbettadan]

I hope you do not misunderstand here Lari...... This is a JAPANESE RANCHU club section.... ie..... top view. I just hope you are not trying to apply something to a different breed of fish, like Chinese lionchu, etc....

Dan

[bigbettadan]

Also, as far as AGA standards go, get the updated files as it does include a top view ranchu standard, as we as some other additions..

When I completed my judging exams, I asked Peter if the anal fin issue was a DQ or fault. I was told it was just a fault. To me personally a conformationally better fish with a single anal should not lose to a poor one with dual anals, IMO...

Dan

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Are we talking about judging SVR or TVR? Im confuse :confuse:

[bigbettadan]

That is a sideview illustration of a "tvr"........

Dan

[Lari]

Dan,

I guess I do misunderstand. And it's not getting any clearer.

It seems to be more a matter of personal opinion than standard.

Who decides what traits are to be adopted and which ones won't?

[suphi]

Lari, for hardcore keepers, ranchu means topview fish only. The standards you came across are likely meant for non-topview fish. Real ranchu has subtle yet distinct appearance that will be apparent to serious keepers right away.

Ranchu is a Japanese term strictly for topview Japanese lionhead goldfish, but it's been widely used to include non-topview fish in the west and in China--perhaps for commercial purpose. Unfortunately, true ranchu isn't widely available in the US so most people aren't really familiar with it.

The Japanese developed ranchu, so their standard should be considered the gold standard.

[bigbettadan]

Well said.... Unlike any other standard I have bred towards, it is more an fine art, and you learn new things every day.... whoever said "ranchu is patience" were oh so right. Also keep in mind, with different Kai's in Japan, there are differences...


Dan

[afnaveils]

Suphi, Dan, I'm with you.

[johnatoranchu]

We seem to be confusing hearsay with fact here as far as Japanese Ranchu standards and Japanese judging is concerned. Clearly I can only say what goes on in Jinchu Kai, other Kai's and "commercial" competitions may differ (but I doubt it).
Firstly, the Japanese do care a fig about single/twin anals. Ideally Ranchu should not only have two anals but they should be identical in size and shape and carried in the same plain (not one pointing up and one pointing down for example). However having a single anal fin would only "disqualify" an exhibit if the single anal fin prevented the fish from swimming properly which is the acid test. In my limited experience poor Ranchu are not disqualified as such, they are simply not taken out of the first holding pond so are therefore excluded from the second (and therefore the third) rounds of judging. A Ranchu with a single anal fin could progress to gain a major award in theory but in practice it is unlikely as it would need to be much better in other areas than all the other exhibits. Incidentally, the same applies to Ranchu with joined tails - ideally a 1/3rd - 2/3rds division is required.
The same applies to the set of the tail. Forget about the 45 degrees set etc. you read about in books etc. in practice the top of the tail should be slightly below the highest point on the dorsal contour. If it is higher than the body then that is regarded as a serious demerit; the main reason for this is that too higher set tail directly influence the fish's ability to swim correctly. Again such fish are not "disqualified" but if they cannot swim well then then they do not progress beyond the initial holding pond. If they can swim OK then the fault is picked up during the second and/or third rounds of judging.
In Japan, Ranch are ADMIRED FROM ABOVE but they are JUDGED FROM ABOVE, JUDGED FROM THE SIDE and JUDGED FROM BELOW - yes, before anyone asks they are handled and taken out of the water several times during the judging process.
Again from my experience, my Japanese friends do not have written Standards, they learn what constitutes a good fish by attending study meetings AND LISTENING TO THEIR SENSAI (Teacher). The beauty of not having a written standard is that they are able to follow a path of continuous improvement without endless arguement/discussion over text and line drawings. Having said that of course if anyone asks for a written standard they will draw you one which explains the multitude of written standards you find in books none of which will have been actually "used" in Japan.
John

[afnaveils]

Thanks for these teachings John!

[bekko]

Uno ranchu cannot compete in AJRS. Are they still ranchu ??

-steve

[bigbettadan]

Thanks John.... We need your help( and Andrews) if we are going to develop our own Kai here!

Dan

[johnatoranchu]

Uno ranchu cannot compete in AJRS. Are they still ranchu ??

-steve

Don't understand this post Steve. Before I tell you what I know about "Uno" - please tell me what you understand by the term "Uno Ranchu".
John

[suphi]

Is there a particular reason why AJRS, which is considered the main event, doesn't allow Uno ranchu?

[bigbettadan]

The pics I have seen of Uno ranchu seem to have high emphasis on hood development verses tail/peduncles.... It may be just differences from kai to kai in breeding goals..

Dan