Green water

[Ranchu Rancher]

Green water needs ammonia to grow. Can I use store bought ammonia to keep my green water going, or do I have to use fish?

Gregg

[George Ludrosky]

The best thing that I have found for growing green water is manure. I get fresh manure from a local farmer, but I think that now you can buy pre-packaged dried manure as fertilizer. Just go light on it, it can give off a distinct aroma!

[Ranchu Rancher]

George: The tanks are in my basement and are already green. I am looking for a way to keep them that way. If I brought manure into the house the wife would go nuts.:badidea: She still has problems with bloodworms in the freezer.


Gregg

[Ichthius]

Human urine is a great nitrogen source for green water. There is a paper out there showing it produced the best greenwater and resulting zooplankton compaired to other agricultural based fertilizers.

[Virginia ranchu]

I have a green water tank that houses a few comet goldfish. I use a clip on type metal reflector with an energy saver bulb that presses right up against the side of the glass. I siphon the bottom from time to time, but the water stays green without any additional chemicals or fertilizers (just fish food)

Rob

[bekko]

Green water can utilize either ammonia or nitrate.

Miracle Grow All-Purpose fertilizer works very well. In the absence of fish, add enough to achieve about 1 ppm nitrogen.

-steve

[Ranchu Rancher]

Thanks for all the responses. I think Iwill go will the miracle grow.:yess:

Gregg

[nygold]

I started one batch of GW with 3 feeders but when it was done I was stuck with 3 feeders. The next batch I started with my very own urine. It worked just fine. Let us know how the miracle grow works and how much your using.

[johnatoranchu]

Don't understand. Why are you "growing" green ammonia rich water? What will you use it for?
John

[Ranchu Rancher]

John: I would like to use it to culture Daphnia. When I get my Ranchus to breed I would like to use the water to feed the fry and I would like to put some of the fry in a green water tank and see how they do. When I took my Ranchus ot the pond, they were in for just two months that was very green, the body and head growth was incredible. So I might try taking some of my Ranchu that are lacking in either head growth or body shape and place them in green water as well. But primarily for Daphnia.


Gregg

[bigbettadan]

When I got my seed daphina, I gota few bottles of green water from the breeder(he is a friend, a betta breeder in Chicago) I just added the daphina and green water to a outdoor tub. It a few weeks, but once up and going it produced well, and I did absolutely nothing maintance wise except fresh water once in awhile. I tried culturing it so many times indoors in tanks with no luck, but doing it outdoors worked great. Just FYI...

Dan

[bekko]

The large Daphnia can be grown on bakers yeast. The smaller form, Moina, needs green water with a little bakers yeast supplement. Moina work much better for growing fry, but it is more trouble to produce.

You can check around and find several types of off-the-shelf algae concentrates. Reed Mariculture, for example. Some of the products are live cultures and some is super-concentrated preserved cells. My wife was able to get Moina densities up to 50,000 per liter using this stuff.

The trick to making Daphnia and Moina a worthwhile endeavor is to grow them at very high densities. If there are only a few hundred per liter then you are just wasting space that could be used for goldfish.

-steve

[johnatoranchu]

John: I would like to use it to culture Daphnia. When I get my Ranchus to breed I would like to use the water to feed the fry and I would like to put some of the fry in a green water tank and see how they do. When I took my Ranchus ot the pond, they were in for just two months that was very green, the body and head growth was incredible. So I might try taking some of my Ranchu that are lacking in either head growth or body shape and place them in green water as well. But primarily for Daphnia.


Gregg

Hi Gregg
Thank you, now I understand! Yeast, coffee mate and sugar are possibly better feeding alternatives for daphnia though. Needless to say green water for Ranchu must be virtually ammonia and nitrite free that's why I was getting worried by your ammonia rich water.
John

[Corrie]

If I could add to this a little.
I have absolutely no experience raising daphnia, but I do have years of experience raising rotifers.
If you need green water, with no ammonia or nitrites, to culture something, then the frozen algae paste is the way to go.
Nanno will work for just about anything, and can be thawed and refrozen over and over as long as you keep it cold.
Randy at Reed Mariculture is a good source for hobbyists.

and they ship all over the world.

HTH
Corrie

[Guenther]

I have absolutely no experience raising daphnia, but I do have years of experience raising rotifers.


http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/wasserflohzucht.jpg

Feed the daphnia with yeast desolved in water so that the water is just a little bit cloudy. Feed again if the water is clear.
If you buy meat in a styrofoam package swich the package in the water to rins off the blood. This boosts the daphnia size.

[Corrie]

Guenther, You can also raise rots (rotifers) on yeast and a lot of other things too, but I know that they are worthless as food for fry when you do that.
We think of rots as empty packages, and only worth what's in their stomachs.

Would that be the same thing with daphnia?

[Guenther]

Guenther, You can also raise rots (rotifers) on yeast and a lot of other things too, but I know that they are worthless as food for fry when you do that.
We think of rots as empty packages, and only worth what's in their stomachs.

Would that be the same thing with daphnia?

For a few years now, I have been testing different fish foods for growthrates.
When adding daphnia, fed with yeast, to pellets the growthrate was significantly higher than pellets alone.

But for fry I only prefer baby brine shrimp and decapsulated brine shrimp eggs.

[Corrie]

That's the same thing I figure out years ago with the clownfish.
Keeping them co-cultured with rots, and feeding a prepared food at the same time, gave me almost double the growth rate.

But I think that has more to do with them just eating on a more constant basis.

I know with rots on yeast, we get a lot of deformaties.

Have you tried gut loading the daphnia on any of the algae?

[Guenther]

But I think that has more to do with them just eating on a more constant basis.

No, the amount of food was the same as when only feeding pellets.
I weighted the dried daphnia but fed it fresh with pellets.http://www.shubunkin.de/temp/yes.gif

Have you tried gut loading the daphnia on any of the algae?

I did not feed the daphnia with algae.
But my daphnia tanks had full sun so the daphnia changed colour to red.
I guess the algae developed in the sun but were eaten immediately so that the water had no chance to turn green.

[Corrie]

I think I'll try gut loading live daphnia (moina) with nanno.
I might as well try co-culturing with rots and monia, since they will both feed on the nanno paste and nanno has a decent HUFA profile.

[judge]

Can daphinia live in freezing temperature? I am now thinking of culturing these.

Thanks in advanced.

[Ichthius]

Yes. My daphnia and moina freeze every winter and bounce back once the ice is gone. Some survive and the also produce resting eggs.

[judge]

Thanks. What amount of Daphinia can you harvest in what frequency for a thirty gallon containter full of Daphinia grown with green water or yeast.

[Ichthius]

Plants need NPK to grow. The ammonia is the N, so now you need a source of phosphorus and potassium. There are commercially available algae fertilizers like Gerard's. Some use miracle grow.

I find that a source of carbon seems to help keep things green. Ammonia alone doesn't keep a culture going very well. I find that having a layer of oak leaves in the bottom of my outdoor cultures makes for a better culture.

[bigbettadan]

My daphina culture is a 30 gallon tub. I let it out in the winter no problem, and leaves get on the bottom...... I get good production in the summer, but I don't produce enough for heavy daily feeding.....about every other day works.

Dan

[Ichthius]

I think of daphnia and moina as snacks for special fish. If you're trying to do large regular feedings it's impossible to beat the ease, efficiency and reliability of brine shrimp.

[bigbettadan]

Agreed........

Dan

[Corrie]

I find culturing a lot easier, and hatching brine a pain, more work, unreliable, and very expensive.

I think if you guys would work on getting your cultures down, you might find out the same thing.

Corrie

[Ichthius]

Your results will vary...

Brine shrimp takes 5 minutes a day to hatch and harvest. Plus there is the added benefit of it being ramped up immediately when you have fry. My time is worth a lot more than the cost of a can of quality cysts.

Getting enough small daphnia to feed a batch of fry, maybe in hawaii or Florida but not in the real world.

Good luck with that.

[Corrie]

That's not very nice.

I run one of the largest hatcheries in this country, and that is in the real world.

Does it even occur to you that we also have to ramp up cultures exactly the same way, for exactly the same reasons, or it would not work?

Do you even know that these cultures are inside, not outside where they would be contaminated, and it doesn't matter where in the world you are doing it?

Because of the amount of fish we raise, it is not cost effective to buy brine shrimp eggs. Brine shrimp might work for some hobbyist raising a few fish, but it would drive the cost up too much for anyone serious about producing fish.

Good luck with that back at you Mr know it all

[Ichthius]

Again your results may vary. What was not nice?

Though to me it sounds like you know it all and are a bragart to boot.

By the way where do you work?

[Corrie]

I didn't say one snippy thing to anyone.
Especially you.
You directed your snip directly at me.

"not in the real world" and "good luck with that" were your words.

You are the one that got all bent out of shape and said those things, only because I posted my experience with culturing.
I did not brag, I did not say my way was better.
I said my way works better for me "I find".
All I said was that I think if you guys would work on getting your cultures down,
you "might" find out it's easier.

Though to me, you sound defensive.

[Ichthius]

So Where do you work?

What you or I do in our professional capacity is not practicle on a hobby level.x

Will you be at the aquaculture meeting in San Diego? xIf so we should have a beer.x

By the way what kind of goldfish do you keep?

[bekko]

I spent three decades figuring out how to cut costs in large finfish and shrimp hatcheries. Hatching Artemia is always cheaper if it meets the nutritional requirements. Culturing is only cost effective when cultured food significantly increases growth and/or survival of the target. This holds true even in developing countries where labor costs are low.

-steve

[small_ranchu]

Everybody,
Please calm down ...

[Corrie]

Steve, all of that changed several years ago with the availability of concentrated algae pastes.

I'm going to guess that when you were looking at it, you were also having to run algae cultures. As you know, they are very time consuming, prone to crashing and contamination, not dependable, and also expensive.

Also, brine has gone up in price since then.

One of the biggest problems with algae cultures, is that you can't get the concentration of algae high enough.

I took your advice and have been working with a strain of moina for the past few weeks. You were right, they do culture exactly like rots.
I find it's very easy to get counts of 20-50/ml/cc, and can double in 24 hours, just like rots.

I also have problems with brine. The nutrition profile is just not there and is the main reason brine will not raise some fish.
With something like moina, you can make them anything you want.

What you are thinking of is co-culturing. Where you culture your feed in the same container that you are culturing your fish. You will get the best growth/survival that way. As opposed to trying to feed several times a day, which is more expensive and labor intensive.

Corrie

[judge]

Thanks all. :worship:

I wanted to get some culture started. I can use yeast instead of greenwater correct? I currently do not have any outdoor tanks so green water natural way is not going to happen for me anytime soon.

In fact I am stuck with very limited space and tanks in door with non stop breeding machines. :D

I shouldn't have started breeding again... But I am hooked now and looking for ways to cut cost....

Time? oh well it flew out of my window since one morning I got this bright idea of breeding for the fish that I want to keep. :D

[Corrie]

I wanted to get some culture started. I can use yeast instead of greenwater correct?

Not necessarily. Yeast does not have the HUFA profile you would be looking for.

Judge, what are you trying to accomplish?

Are you just breeding a few fish for pets?

Are you breeding for something specific?
And if so, is it something you think you would have a high ratio of in babies,
or something you think you might only get a few with that characteristic?

Corrie

[Ichthius]

In fact I am stuck with very limited space and tanks in door with non stop breeding machines. :D

Sounds like a perfect argument for just hatching Brine shrimp.

<}}}><

[judge]

Not necessarily. Yeast does not have the HUFA profile you would be looking for.

Judge, what are you trying to accomplish?

Are you just breeding a few fish for pets?

Are you breeding for something specific?
And if so, is it something you think you would have a high ratio of in babies,
or something you think you might only get a few with that characteristic?

Corrie

I want the culture to feed my young fish not at the fry level. Fry level would suffice with the brine shrimp. I want them for about a month old fish. I want to test this out see if I can make it...

Saw some Chinese firms do this... So I would like to try this...

[Corrie]

Use anything that will hold water.
10 gal tanks, sterite tubs, 5gal buckets

Don't use an airstone, just use rigid air line, and only a few bubbles.
Just enough to keep the water slowly moving.

Stick in a ammonia alert badge.

Add your culture and feed.

Here's what you need to know:
They are what they eat, and low on HUFA's, high on digestive enzymes that
they pass on to the fish, which can give fish diarrhea.
You can gut load them with algae paste (HUFA), spirulina, selcon, etc

Very sensitive to ammonia and pollutants.
Any plastic (sterite, buckets, etc) scrub with vinegar very well first.

The slightest color change on the ammonia alert badge, do a water change.

Keep the water buffered with baking soda.

That's about it.

I would get a small bag of frozen algae paste and culture them on that, only
because it's cheap and easy, especially in the house.

Corrie

[judge]

Thanks Corrie.

Where do I get frozen algae paste?

[Ichthius]

Reedmariculture.com

[Corrie]

Judge, while Reed/Randy is a well known source for hobbyists, there are much better sources.
I'm PM you a couple.
Should run you about $15 for a blood bag, which should last you 6 months to a year.

What you want is Nanno paste with no glycerin.
It's made both ways, glycerin just gives it a longer shelf life in the freezer,
which you don't need. Glycerin will gunk up your cultures, it's sugar, bacteria bloom.

With the algae paste you can get the concentration of algae up high enough
to grow really dense cultures of daphnia.

BTW, I would start a culture of moina instead.

Corrie

[judge]

I now have Daphinia Magna and Monia and now feeding them nano paste. The nano paste looks dark and have very fish smell. When added to the water it looks cloudy.

Is this normal?

Never raised Daphinia before and don't know what I am doing.... :D

[Corrie]

Are you diluting the paste before you use it? Or using the straight concentrate?

It should smell very green and sweet, like fresh cut grass.

[judge]

Are you diluting the paste before you use it? Or using the straight concentrate?

It should smell very green and sweet, like fresh cut grass.

I used them diluted... Nothing close to fresh cut grass. It is very fishy. It came in a bottle. Very thick darkish brown liquid inside.

[Corrie]

Judge, what did you buy? Did they send you something special for moina?

[judge]

Judge, what did you buy? Did they send you something special for moina?

I will have to go back and read the bottle. Can't remember the scientific name. I think its the one that you recommanded. The lady said Monia or Magna would eat it but not Brine Shrimp. May be mine is already bad coz it was in my fridge for a bout 3 weeks.

[Corrie]

May be mine is already bad coz it was in my fridge for a bout 3 weeks.

LOL you think!
You're supposed to keep it frozen.
That's why people pour it into ice cube trays and refreeze it.
Then you only take out one ice cube at a time, thaw just one ice cube, and use it before it goes bad.

It can still work if it goes a little bad, especially if it's nanno. Nanno has a really tough shell and does not break down fast.

If it's not crashing your cultures, pour it into little portions and refreeze it.

[judge]

LOL you think!
You're supposed to keep it frozen.
That's why people pour it into ice cube trays and refreeze it.
Then you only take out one ice cube at a time, thaw just one ice cube, and use it before it goes bad.

It can still work if it goes a little bad, especially if it's nanno. Nanno has a really tough shell and does not break down fast.

If it's not crashing your cultures, pour it into little portions and refreeze it.
I see... I have plenty of green water. Can I use them instead? Mine are starter cultures so I can't risk crashing them... :D..

Yes what I bought was Nano Cholorophilus or something like that.

[Corrie]

Take a part of your culture, put it in another container, feed it, and see if you kill them - or - if they multiply and go on about their business.
You only need a very faint light green tint, don't make it too dark green.

[suphi]

40G tank that was previously housing my TVRs.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_MGfznEsT6tU/TEiz8aAPWMI/AAAAAAAAAQ4/1MtEHXRwH-Y/gw.jpg

[bigbettadan]

Be careful with temp, green water and hot temps lead to a very low oxygen level...

[johnatoranchu]

Be careful with temp, green water and hot temps lead to a very low oxygen level...

Or indeed very high oxygen levels which can decimate finnage in minutes. Dangerous stuff this green water!
John

[nygold]

The more GW you have the safer it is, so if your going to go green go BIG.

[Ichthius]

Aeration is important with greenwater. During the day oxygen super saturation can causevgas bubble disease and at night when the algae use oxygen, the two biggest issues with gw can be solved with adequate aeration.

[Corrie]

and don't forget the pH swings too, green water can make your pH bounce all over the place

[Ichthius]

Which aeration helps moderate.

My gw pH can get up to 9+ but it doesn't bother my pond fish. I'd say it's their favorite time of the year.

[johnatoranchu]

As I said - dangerous stuff this green water. I'll keep mine crystal clear.
John

[bluebelly]

The first algae bloom and my pond veils tails fill with bubbles, those at the surface that are not eaten by birds soon become chop tails and breed with out issue. The first time in an acre pond of black broadtails went this way my partner called me to say we had huge jellyfish , it was about 24 broadtails at the surface with head down and tails floating upward. I have seen long tail shubunkins suffer the same way, fighting to get down in the water. Aeration helps .

[TheTruth]

to both you guys,feed whatever you can start them with for 24 hrs per day.after 2 weeks put pellets in a coffee griender(a tip from the mad scientist until it becomes a powder.they will eat this and grow.with an average spawn and culling after2wks or sooner they can grow to almost 1in in 1mo.i keep a can of brine for about 2yrs with about 3 spawns.im talking about ranchus.

[nygold]

As I said - dangerous stuff this green water. I'll keep mine crystal clear.


GW is not as dangerous as most think there are alot of myths about GW.
It's actually a very easy/lazy way to keep goldfish. Also if you like red fish it's a great way of turning a young orange fish into a tomato.

[Ichthius]

I agree with you but we're not going to change anyone's mind as one's fish keeping methodology is very similar to politics and religion.

Another great use for it is culturing live food.

[small_ranchu]

we're not going to change anyone's mind as one's fish keeping methodology is very similar to politics and religion.

it's true. :)

[nygold]

I agree with you but we're not going to change anyone's mind as one's fish keeping methodology is very similar to politics and religion.


You can say that again. Believe me I've been down the GW vs CW road before it's not pretty. But I do believe there is a time and a place for everything and it's doesn't hurt to try something different once in a while.
GW is nothing to be afraid of only the discussion of GW is something to fear.

[frankalank]

Well, I would hate to stir up some old controversy, as this thread alone got pretty hostile at times. But I do intend to learn as much as possible, and don’t think this discussion is over. I have been browsing here, and on rafflesgold, but it seems that they are a lot more receptive to GW in Asia than here, maybe because we like looking at our fish way too much.

I would like to know what the real benefits are. Like many things with goldfish, GW is shrouded in mystery, and mysticism. Does anyone have actual fact? Or better yet, who actually uses it? I saw Suphi post a picture and I know his fish look great, but who else is brave enough to show concrete evidence? Is it really worth the risk?
I’m thinking of setting up a big tub outside, maybe 300 to 500G with an air pump and moving the big fish for a few months, but I’m not sure about going all in like that. I’m down in San Diego, so sunlight is in no short supply.
If you would like to help, but stay away from hostilities, please feel free to PM me and we can talk privately.
Very Respectfully,
Frank

[nygold]

Well, I would hate to stir up some old controversy, as this thread alone got pretty hostile at times. But I do intend to learn as much as possible, and don’t think this discussion is over. I have been browsing here, and on rafflesgold, but it seems that they are a lot more receptive to GW in Asia than here, maybe because we like looking at our fish way too much.

I would like to know what the real benefits are. Like many things with goldfish, GW is shrouded in mystery, and mysticism. Does anyone have actual fact? Or better yet, who actually uses it? I saw Suphi post a picture and I know his fish look great, but who else is brave enough to show concrete evidence? Is it really worth the risk?
I’m thinking of setting up a big tub outside, maybe 300 to 500G with an air pump and moving the big fish for a few months, but I’m not sure about going all in like that. I’m down in San Diego, so sunlight is in no short supply.
If you would like to help, but stay away from hostilities, please feel free to PM me and we can talk privately.
Very Respectfully,
Frank

I'm not affraid I'll talk about GW all day if you'd like.
I have had a GW set-up going for almost 2 years in some way or another. I've had large outdoor set-ups, large indoor set-ups and just about everything in between. I currently have a 27 gallon round (tub like) GW culture going as we speak. I like the results I get from GW and I use it kind of like how the koi guys use a mud pond. I grow them in the GW and them put them in CW later on. I also cycle already grown fish back and forth.
I don't know what kind of evidence your talking about do you wan't proof that I'm using it or what? It really is just another method of raising fish nothing more. The growth rate is very good in GW also it tends to bring out the deep reds.
I'll try and answer any questions you have about GW.

[GlassGoldfish]

These guys have a poetic viewpoint of green-water techniques. Be sure to click on "the green water" page to read about pros, cons and philosophy of green water. Also has growth comparisons of green water.

http://vermilliongoldfishclub.com/

[nygold]

The Advantages


o High Oxygenated Water
Carbon dioxide and ammonia is consumed and plenty of oxygen is released during photosynthesis. Goldfish kept in rich oxygenated water in big outdoor space will have extremely good appetite, and would grow rapidly and healthily. This is also an essential factor to achieve good head development of the Ranchu, Lionhead and Oranda varieties.

o Zero Byproducts
A major advantage of the photosynthesis process over the nitrification process is that it produces no byproducts like nitrite or nitrate!

o Cheap, Easy, Effective and Natural Filtration System
Natural and highly effective filtration of the green algae water takes over the expensive and tedious maintenance of man-made filtration system.

o Gradual Changes in Environment Parameters
The gradual fluctuation of pH and temperature in an outdoor environment helps to strengthen the fish, making them less prone to common diseases.

o Excellent Food Source
Green algae contain very high protein (60% more than shrimp - essential to the head development of the Ranchu, Lionhead and Oranda varieties) and fresh carotene – the natural color enhancer for goldfish. The outdoor pond is also a hotbed for the nutritious blood worms and mosquito larvae, an important supplement for our precious goldfish.

o Conducive Environment
Goldfish dwelling in the soothing green environment are also less stressed than those in crystal clear water. Naturally, they develop better under minimal stress.

o Accurate Indication of Diseases
Green water is a good indicator of the health of the goldfish. Water that turns brownish-green is a sure indication of problems with the goldfish.

[nygold]

The Disadvantages

o Oxygen Deprecation
At night, the algae compete with the goldfish for oxygen, and may result in suffocation.

o Oxygen Burn
Too much oxygen produced by the green algae water causes the fish to suffer from “oxygen burn” as the oxygen bubbles forms inside their fins and burst.

o Now You See Them Now You don’t
You can’t see your goldfish clearly in green water.


It is very difficult for many hobbyists to accept the benefits of the green water, especially in the commercial world, where there are huge investments on specialized products to counter the growth of green algae.

Why the heck to keep goldfish if we can’t even see them in the green water? Being avid hobbyist, we prefer to groom our goldfish rather than to see them deteriorate overtime. In order to get the best of both worlds, we rent outdoor ponds and “rotate” our collection of goldfish every few months from our home aquariums. In this way, we get enough bright colored and beautiful fishes to admire at home and at the same time, another batch is being cultivated by nature, waiting to be swap into the aquarium again.

[frankalank]

I'm not affraid I'll talk about GW all day if you'd like.
I have had a GW set-up going for almost 2 years in some way or another. I've had large outdoor set-ups, large indoor set-ups and just about everything in between. I currently have a 27 gallon round (tub like) GW culture going as we speak. I like the results I get from GW and I use it kind of like how the koi guys use a mud pond. I grow them in the GW and them put them in CW later on. I also cycle already grown fish back and forth.
I don't know what kind of evidence your talking about do you wan't proof that I'm using it or what? It really is just another method of raising fish nothing more. The growth rate is very good in GW also it tends to bring out the deep reds.
I'll try and answer any questions you have about GW.

The evidence I was looking for was pics not of the setup, but of the fish. Its easy to tell good development from pics, I'm looking for good finnage and wen development and a time table of progress if possible. How long do you have to have them in GW before you can see real improvement? I was planning something similar to what you are talking about, rotating fish between the setups, but was wondering what the duration of the rotation should be. And two more particular questions for me,
I have an apache oranda and I'm thinking about placing him in GW but I'm afraid it will lose the black. Should I make the switch or keep him in CW?
Also, I know this is good for ranchus and orandas, but I suspect it would help improve development of the hump on ryukin, is this a pretty safe assumption?
thanks for all the advice
Very Respectfully,
Frank

[nygold]

How long do you have to have them in GW before you can see real improvement? In 3 to 4 week you should see a difference.

I have an apache oranda and I'm thinking about placing him in GW but I'm afraid it will lose the black.
If the fish isn't showing any signs of fading I would leave it.
GW has been known to deteriorate blacks.

I suspect it would help improve development of the hump on ryukin, is this a pretty safe assumption?


That's what I used and it worked for me, it's a giant green protien shake for Goldfish.

I will try to post some pictures of development tonight.

[small_ranchu]

In my experience, it is a good way of keeping fish with minor SBD. Fish will get back to normal.

[nygold]

Here are some pictures they don't prove anything because it's just one fish but it does show development.
All 3 pictures are of the same fish.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1882_6240905_1.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1882_715092_11.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/10-3-101.jpg

[GlassGoldfish]

The Disadvantages

o Oxygen Deprecation
At night, the algae compete with the goldfish for oxygen, and may result in suffocation.

o Oxygen Burn
Too much oxygen produced by the green algae water causes the fish to suffer from “oxygen burn” as the oxygen bubbles forms inside their fins and burst.

o Now You See Them Now You don’t
You can’t see your goldfish clearly in green water.



These disadvantages can be nullified by keeping the green water very light in color with medium sized water changes. Dark pea soup green water is undesirable and heightens the above mentioned oxygen issues.

[bigbettadan]

I would like to see a comparison of green water vs Just keeping fish in tubs outdoors. Alot of the benefits attributed to green water I get from time outdoors in the sun. I have had tubs develop GW, but not intentionally. I would still conduct water changes to keep it from getting too green. Especially in the hottest months where oxygen is a concern. Any thoughts?

Dan

[nygold]

Finding the right hue of green is a bit tricky I'm torn between bright green and pea soup. The bright green is probably all around better than pea soup.
As far as oxygen burn goes it takes EXTREME conditions for this to occur.
I've had fish in an outdoor tub and wasn't home to change out the water the air temp. was is the high 90's for around a week and the water was very dark green. None of the fish showed any signs of oxygen burn.
I'm not saying it can't happen but it takes alot.

[thomas]

I posted this questions long ago but didn't get to much answers. if the water gets too dark, instead of changing the water, would it be ok if I run a uv light on it until the color gets lighter?

[nygold]

I posted this questions long ago but didn't get to much answers. if the water gets too dark, instead of changing the water, would it be ok if I run a uv light on it until the color gets lighter?

I honeslty have no idea if the UV light would work but part of the beauty of green water is the simplicity of it. No fancy filters or gadgets this is as basic as it gets WATER, AIR, & LIGHT. Why complicate it?
But if I had to geuss the UV light would kill the algae and it would fall to the bottom and decompose. Is that good or bad? I don't know.

[kendal]

I posted this questions long ago but didn't get to much answers. if the water gets too dark, instead of changing the water, would it be ok if I run a uv light on it until the color gets lighter?

if by lighter you mean crystal clear, if so, then yes.

UV will knock it back fast as it will kill everything that passes through it. i run a UV on an outdoor ornamental and it is crystal clear even when temps are near 90f—and it is stocked with fish and fertilized for the plants. if you turned on a UV, then turned it off before all the water cycled, it might work. but you now have a bunch of decomposing dead algae floating in the water which introduces a whole new set of potential issues with water quality. why not just do a 50% water change? seams easier. green fish water is great for watering the garden.

personally i have never been able to get anything close to dark green and struggle to keep even a light green going in daphnia/mosquito tubs. i would not worry about it until it happens, then swap out some water.

[judge]

I posted this questions long ago but didn't get to much answers. if the water gets too dark, instead of changing the water, would it be ok if I run a uv light on it until the color gets lighter?

Thomas - Like others have already said changing water is the best option.

One of the reason why we use green water in the first place is because the green color serves as the indicator of when you need to change your water and how much to keep your fish healthy. Running UV light defeats that purpose. Goldfish needs to change water regardless of how great of a filtration is to replace the lost minerals.

If you have kept green water culture before depending on the bio-load, meaning -the number of fish that you keep in the green water, your feeding, and amount of light you might notice that the color darkens in about 48 hours even with indoor light.

Thats where you change part of water to keep the right algae intensity of green water culture cycle going.

Because of the weather here I have to use indoor green water culture. If you have whole day sun exposed outdoor ponds/tanks please be sure to give them some shades on high noons. Control the amount of sun that you allow to hit the tanks.

The oxygen burns does occurs in whole day sun exposed tanks. I have experienced it before when I was breeding fish back in Asia (I was young and didn't know what I was doing and there was no internet and no fish forums at that time.:D) . Your fish will have bubbles all over its fins and it is not a pretty sight to see.

If you have indoor lighted green water tank, you do not have to worry about oxygen burn and oxygen depletion. You can't make algae produce too much oxygen with your aquarium light and if you supply air pump to the tank oxygen depletion never occurs when you switch off the light.

[c2c]

i'm trying to develop green water indoors in my 29 gal tank. i read Steve's article about it a month or so ago and decided to see if it made a difference in my teles growth and development. i was going to try the rotation method by moving some fish from the show tank to gw and back that was mentioned earlier here.

unfortunately, my water is cloudy, but not green. i have a sponge filter with airstone and a feeder fish and a 100 watt grow lite that stays on about 20 hrs a day and is 18 inches from the tank.

its been almost 3 weeks and i got nothing. i haven't tried the urine trick yet (im reluctant since i take meds for blood pressure and do not know how that will alter the water), but did put alittle miracle grow in, but nothing happened. is my lite wattage too low? too high? the lite to far? to close?

Any suggestions are welcome. thanx:)

[nygold]

i'm trying to develop green water indoors in my 29 gal tank. i read Steve's article about it a month or so ago and decided to see if it made a difference in my teles growth and development. i was going to try the rotation method by moving some fish from the show tank to gw and back that was mentioned earlier here.

unfortunately, my water is cloudy, but not green. i have a sponge filter with airstone and a feeder fish and a 100 watt grow lite that stays on about 20 hrs a day and is 18 inches from the tank.

its been almost 3 weeks and i got nothing. i haven't tried the urine trick yet (im reluctant since i take meds for blood pressure and do not know how that will alter the water), but did put alittle miracle grow in, but nothing happened. is my lite wattage too low? too high? the lite to far? to close?

Any suggestions are welcome. thanx:)

C2C glad to hear your giving GW a shot. I'll try and help out the best I can.
First thing you have to do is get rid of the sponge filter. Just use an air-stone. Next forget wattage it means nothing think kelvin. Look to see what your bulb or bulbs are rated at. Look for between 6400k & 6700k. Lastly move the light to just a few inches above the water. If you have another feeder it would help a bit but it should work with one unless it's very small.
This should do the trick.
Don

[thomas]

Also, make sure you get some before and after pictures.

[judge]

i'm trying to develop green water indoors in my 29 gal tank. i read Steve's article about it a month or so ago and decided to see if it made a difference in my teles growth and development. i was going to try the rotation method by moving some fish from the show tank to gw and back that was mentioned earlier here.

unfortunately, my water is cloudy, but not green. i have a sponge filter with airstone and a feeder fish and a 100 watt grow lite that stays on about 20 hrs a day and is 18 inches from the tank.

its been almost 3 weeks and i got nothing. i haven't tried the urine trick yet (im reluctant since i take meds for blood pressure and do not know how that will alter the water), but did put alittle miracle grow in, but nothing happened. is my lite wattage too low? too high? the lite to far? to close?

Any suggestions are welcome. thanx:)

I have posted my set up on green water with detailed description in the thread below. If you still have question after reading the thread let me know.

http://www.goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1800&page=2

[nygold]

GW shot
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/GW2-11-11.jpg

[c2c]

I will have to admit total, utter, failure with my green water experimentation :(

my attempts only caused a super bloom of this thick, red, hairy looking monster seemingly from deep space that shut down 90% flow from all four of my filters (two emperor 400s, marineland hot, and eheim ecco) in three days that i was not home. :me:

i should have left the experiment in the smaller tank instead of moving to the show tank since i had zero experience, but it has caused me to do massisve water changes everyday since, take apart and clean all the filters, and scrub my beautiful 3d background that i was so proud of making.

some things best left to pros i guess:exact:

[nygold]

C2C Your not supposed to use filtration with GW.
Water, Light, Air stone, Fish.
That's it the only other thing you add to the water is food.

[c2c]

i guess i missed that. thank you. i guess i mite try again in my 29 gal then. it just turned out so bad, i was scared. thanks eversomuch

[Ichthius]

Things rarely work the first time.

[c2c]

thats the darn truth!

[scarletteclipse]

nice, this picture reminds me of part of the jellyfish exhibit at the boston aquarium. my hero and high school bio teacher always moved her fish to a GW tank which also housed plants in the winter, not much of a view but she probably wasn't allowed to use school funding on constant filtration and a showy tank would have distracted students already hard to control, well, maybe not so hard for her. ;)

[java fern]

Hello ,


Someone ask for green water experiences so I'll give mine for what its worth . Four years ago I buried a 150 gal. stock tank in the yard all the way to the top. Put 2 american subunkin in it , this tank was in full sunlight all day long .This was my routine : In April when the temp. in the day would hold in the low to mid 50's , I would remove the fish , pump the 150 dry and do a complete cleaning of it , refill it , treat the water with chlorine neutralizer and the next day replace the fish . From then on through the summer and fall on the weekend I would pump down by using a submergable pump the water level in the 150 to a level that I marked that removed 100 gal. of water from it , the fish stayed in the tank. I used another stock tank to make-up the fresh water 1 day ahead of time and gravity feed the new water in . This keep the muck on the bottom pumped out and keep the water in good condition . Two or three times in the summer I would remove the fish and empty the 150 and do a complete cleaning of the tank , refill and replace the fish . The tank would go green in 2 to 3 days , so green that I could only see down about 6 inchs or so .
The temp. in high summer was 80 to 82 deg. on the surface , lower at the bottom , not sure what it was 75 maybe .
The tank never had a filter or air stone in it at anytime .
Ammonia tests always showed 0 level of ammonia .
The fish were always well feed 3 or 4 times a day .
I feed them , cut up worms , plain cooked rice , uncooked peas with the shell removed , cooked oatmeal as for the table with nothing added and sinking goldfish pellets . There colors were always bright and they seemed in good health .
In late fall when the day temp. was dropping below the mid 50's , I would remove the fish , clean the tank, fill with fresh water , replace the fish and forget them till April . I used a pond heater to keep a hole open all winter in the ice .
This worked wll for me , but I gave it up , I felt it was to much work , with the tank being in the full sun all day , which made for fast algae growth , to fast . If I were to do it again I would place the tank in dappled light or where it got only about 5 hours of sun a day , to keep the green water growth rate lower so as to decrease the water changes. I never tried to see how long I could go before the ammonia would spike up , as if I did the muck on the bottom would overwhelm the tank .

I hope this helps , java fern

[small_ranchu]

Did you get any issue such as folded finage like somebody describe at finmood?

[java fern]

Hello Fred ,


I keep the fish like this for 3 years and did not see any problems with body or fins .
I come to the conclusion that 8" to 10" fish keep this way should have at least 100 gals. of water each . Keeping fish this way over the summer and fall may be a good way to go .
No worry about filter failure when on vacation as the filter is living in the tank !:yess:
Full sunlight I feel is to much .
One must keep the muck removed .
Take an ammonia test each 3 or 4 days .
You will have a near endless supply of green water for daphnia culture from May to Sept .
Like anything else it has its good points and bad points , its up to the keeper to keep the good points on top !

java fern

[nygold]

When I had a green water set up outside I would cover a portion of it to
keep some of the sun out. This would slow the GW process down which lead to less water changes.

[Ichthius]

You will never get a positive ammonia test in greenwater! The algae eats ammonia immediately.

The water quality issues in greenwater are to much oxygen in the day (can actually get oxygen bubbles in the fins of the fish) or not enough oxygen in the night when they switch from producing oxygen to consuming it.

[c2c]

thanks, everybody.
thanks, java.

maybe I need a bigger tank. the water in my gw tank seem too change too quickly for me to get it right.

unfortunately, i live in middle of town so no pond or pondlike features for me. there's just too many kids and no fence can stop'em.:) but i really appreciate all of everyone's suggestions. seems easier for me to just quit gw altogether, but i keep tryin:)

[small_ranchu]

The title of this blog post has long been a very touchy subject for many Goldfish hobbyists.

I like to think of the greenwater and "clearwater" as tools to groom our fishes. Knowing why, when and how to apply these tools is the key to enjoying a successful hobby. In grooming fishes, the basic parameters to play with are stocking, feeding frequency, type of feed and amount of space amongst others. Apart from genetic factors and depending on how these parameters interplay, in general, the greenwater is ideal for colour finishing, wen growth, and providing a more stabilised temperature for fishes in drastic weather conditions while the "clearwater" is great for developing colour depth, regulating wen balance and longitudinal growth.

Though the Internet is a good source for learning, it is also an information jungle. It is sometimes difficult to be objective when our judgements are biased by what we learned from some sources. There are those who would argue that a certain tool or methodology is invalid simply because it doesn't work out for them, so by this argument, they have eradicated the possibility that they may not actually know how to apply the tool properly in the first place. Yet, there are some, who for ego's sake or personal agenda make out strained interpretations and far-fetched analogies that one tool is more superior than the other by presenting skewed experiments and concealing important facts.

Accepting that there are different routes to nirvana, we can be more objective to open our eyes, our ears and our minds to different perspectives. Along the line of achieving balance and harmony with the understanding that extremes measures almost always backfire, we would not fall prey easily to such radical arguments.

For the sharp-eyed readers who wondered why I use inverted commas for the word "clearwater", let me posit that nothing can change the fact that sunlight is the life-line of all living things; a stable body of water with good clarity where fishes flourished will be directly or indirectly exposed to sunlight and having some form of plant/algae matter. Even the organic waste from dead plant matter is beneficial for the wellbeing of the aquatic ecosystem. The greenwater, on the other hand, can be a beast if not moderated; fin burns, over development and stunted growth are some of the side effects. Any tool, no matter how powerful, is a double edged sword to weld - Power is nothing without control.

For my dear readers who still can't see my point, I am sorry for the rambling. The summary of this blog post is: just let the fish do the talking :)


source:
http://goldfishartquatics.blogspot.com/2011/11/greenwater-clearwater.html

[nygold]

Thanks Fred what a great post.

GW is nothing more than a tool.
If you know how and when to use it, it can be very handy.

[Taylor]

OK, here is my method of getting green water for daphnia in the summer.

I never wash the stock tanks. I leave all the slime on the sides. Then I put the stock tank with plenty of depth to it in a really sunny spot outside, and add powdered spirulina which you can get in 5 pound bags on Ebay. Once it hits the water it will take right off and green up like crazy. When the water clears, just add more powder. Toss in a pinch of sea minerals for every 5 gallons for fertilizer. Et voila.

[bluebelly]

Trying out new fluorescent light bulbs and tanks with in three feet of the bulbs are green.