Females that never lay eggs

[sc569]

I had had fish that were not males but never laid eggs. I assumed that they were females.

However, I guess it is possible that those fish were some sort of weird gender, indeterminate. Perhaps intersex fish.

I never took a look at their gonads.

Any body have a similar experience? Any one check their internal organs?

[harzan]

Many years ago, I bought a batch of ranchu from a well known local breeder here and was told they did not spawn the previous season...(one year old fish). I figured I would try since my fish easily spawned at my condo at the time as it cooled off well in the evenings on my lanai. NO LUCK!

I dumped them at the LFS. Moved on...no fish are worth figuring out, it could be a lot of things.

[afertuna]

Funny Gary and I were just talking about "IT" fish last week. We were discussing the possibility of that happening with to close of inbreeding. I have a couple myself I havent given up yet .

[mikroll]

Interesting question.
I have an oranda who is 6 years old and has just spawned for the first time this month. and just today ( new moon) is laying eggs again.

[afertuna]

Congrats MIk post when you get a hatch. Orandas are sooo much fun to watch grow. I think of all the fry I had this year they are the fastest growers.

[Cincy Ranchu]

The Yellow that Mandley used to bring back the commons here in the states was 3 when I gave it to him and 5 before he bred it.

Seems to me that inbred and line bred fish often do not breed unless physically challenged through a good dormancy. Perhaps they are too fat otherwise. No Ranchu spawns for me in 09', I believe Parker had a similiar experience this year.

After 4 to five years of inbreeding the spawning seems to wane or at least become infrequent:coffee:

[johnatoranchu]

Goldfish and many other species of fish produce huge numbers of fertile eggs but not all the fry are "designed" to live or breed. We have all had fish in our spawnings which simply will not grow or stop growing at a certain size even though other siblings grow and develop normally. These "small" siblings I believe is nature providing food for the remainder. Similarly not all animals, (including ourselves) have the ability to breed. I can't think why, it's just a fact of life and not necessarily as a result of line and/or inbreeding although I know of at least one major breeder of Bristol Shubunkins in the UK who retains males who demonstrate their sex early as potential breeders and sells better looking ones which don't.
During my first trip to Japan in 1989 my friend and I were given two outstanding Ranchu. They were top quality show specimens, three years old and were about 6 inches long from mouth to end of peduncle. Notwithstanding that one was obviously a male and the other a female we were told that the fish would never breed as their sex was "stuck in between" but we were being given them so that we could study their swimming motion.
Needless-to-say, we knew best and tried every trick in the book to persuade them to breed. The "male" was totally tubed up and we put him in a pond with several fully ripe females. Nothing. The "male" showed no interest whatsoever in the females, neither did the females show any interest in him. Even when the females chased each other in desperation "he" did not join in. He just ate and looked magnificent. The "female" was placed in a pond with several males but the same story was repeated; the males totally ignored "her". After several weeks we put some of "our" above males and females into a pond together and spawning was instant! We tried warm water, cold water, frequent water changes, plenty of food, no food and live food only over a period of three years but there was never even an indication that they would spawn and other fish continued to ignore them. The Japanese were proved right but I don't know how they knew. Don't suggest that they had been doctored in some way as these fish would have been worth a fortune had they been viable breeders,
John

[SeaWitch]

Not that I am a "breeder", but I had started worrying about my demekin after I had her for two years and she never dropped eggs. She looked female in all aspects, vent, etc. However, she never dropped eggs, even when my male was in spawning behavior.

I was told by someone that some fish can appear female on the outside, but not have the female "organs". :youtellme: I thought that was my fish's problem until she finally dropped one day out of the blue and BOY did she drop! I had never seen so many eggs in my life and she continued to drop for 4 days.

[judge]

Right now I have two Ranchu females that haven't laid eggs yet while their sibling laid eggs for the 4th time.

They are about 10 months (I think).

Years ago a friend of mine had a huge oranda female that never laid eggs and he asked me for help. I took her home put her in a concrete pond fed her plenty change water every day after about 2 weeks I put 7 male orandas who are about 6 months old and very active. They chase her day and night for about two days and third day I had tons of eggs.

However out of that many eggs only about 5 hatched...

On the other hand about 10 months ago I had red cap female that would drop eggs but none of the males are interested in chasing her at spawning. They would chase the other females but not her. She is all alone and with a lot of eggs just keep on dropping by herself.

I don't know if fish has attractiveness or (sexiness) factor.... By no means she is ugly at all. In fact she is a great looking red cap.

Even then the males are only interested in the other females.

I really don't know what to think of that.

[Virginia ranchu]

That's funny! Who's to say what is "attractive" to goldfish. After all, we think telescope eyes and headgrowth are attractive...what if humans looked like that. Yikes!

Rob

[bekko]

They pick their mate by smell. That probably works better than my method :>) Phermones released into the water.

-steve

[sc569]

Thanks for all of the comments.

I did have one fish that never laid eggs until it died. This is a fish that was housed with other females and males for about three breeding seasons. That fish was never chased but also never got tubercles.

I have tried several tricks to get select fish to lay eggs. The best trick is to keep known females that lay eggs with that selected female. Once the hormones from the helper females get secreted, the prize female usually follows suit and lays eggs. This works like a charm most of the time. I have also learned that I need to keep my males in with the females as they develop. It does not work to introduce the males the day of the spawn. The males also produce hormones that help the females to mature their eggs.

For what it's worth, I have had females whose first batch of eggs had a very low fertilization rate. My guess is that the eggs were bad. The second or third batch, about two weeks apart, had excellent hatch rates (>75% hatch).

[Cincy Ranchu]

I like taking a fish for two that will not breed and packing them for shipment in cool weather and putting them in the truck of the car for an overnight trip, the darkness and boucing sometimes does the trick. Just like buying imports.

[George Ludrosky]

I have always had good luck with running a 50% water change and raising the ph. This year has been different, I have some females that I know are ready to spawn but the boys just don't seem interested. I've even tried adding some boys that have just been spawning to see if that would help and it's just not working!

I may try the cold car ride.

[thomasn]

what about using one of these spawning products (http://www.argent-labs.com/argentwebsite/hormones.htm)?

scroll down for description

[Virginia ranchu]

Hmmmm, why perpetuate infertile fish? I like Al Foster's logic "I breed the fish that spawn" or something like that

Rob

[bekko]

what about using one of these Ovaprim is better and safer, but it's still tricky business and it is easy to accidentally kill a few. Not for the faint-of-heart, and not for use on your best fish. Hormone injections can prompt a fish with developed eggs to ovulate, but it will not make a barren fish develop eggs.

I just accept the fact that most goldfish are not going to spawn when I want them to and try to compensate by keeping enough breeding stock to make sure there are a few which perform.

-steve

[Cincy Ranchu]

I have stories about that materail, Simon Wong used it for some rare line of Ranchu and was very successful, me not so much:exact:

[bluebelly]

Have made them spawn with heat, 80 to 84 degrees for two weeks worked on the female yellow. have seen reproductive problems after goldfish herpes and heat helps them. Old reptile trick for snakes and turtles to drive them around in the dark in the trunk of your car. For red foot tortoises I would play drums near enclosure, raise heat, increase photo period , then turn a hose on them every day for a week. It worked every time.

[flaringshutter]

Mine always seem to spawn in the spring or summer early morning after a big, cold water change, especially if I leave the window open and the dawn light hits the tank. Although I have a big female that spawned often in her first year and hasn't spawned at all for three years now.

[bodyboarder]

My story here is a four year old Moor, (Know slowly turning Red) She has been with me a long time and she has never ever had any inclination with breeding! I have housed her with my male Dragoneye the one thats been up for judging for nearly a year know and NOTHING.. the male has chased her but she just is not bothered at all.. has been like this all the time not interested in any breeding activities.. So this is why in the end I am giving up on dragoneyes Moors and the likes.. Long live my randy LIONCHUS :)

[bodyboarder]

oops forgot to put a foto in LOL
http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp326/bodyboarder04/Demekins/DEMEKINat12cms3.jpg

[mikroll]

i have a 6 year oranda who finally decide to start thowing the eggs.

[bodyboarder]

i have a 6 year oranda who finally decide to start thowing the eggs.

This is to encourage me to keep her then Mike?? LOL She must go and so must the Dragoneye male Need space for my New RANCHU and RYUKINS.. LOL