Step by step cull procedure for Bristol

[terryl]

I have a small tank full of newly hatched Bristols and I have never breeded this fish before. I need advice on how to cull. Here is my thinking.

1. Any obvious deforms (body tail, fin, etc).
2. Any metallic color, keep only matt and calico.
3. Any white & pink color fish
4. poor tail shape
5. Body shape & fin shape
6. Color
7. Positively select 20 best fish for keeping. all the rest will go to local fish market (just kidding, I mean auction at the local fish club or fellow hobbyists).

Is that a reasonable step by step process for culling Bristol. I am thinking about keeping less than 20 frys for this year.

Terry

[johnatoranchu]

I have a small tank full of newly hatched Bristols and I have never breeded this fish before. I need advice on how to cull. Here is my thinking.

1. Any obvious deforms (body tail, fin, etc).
2. Any metallic color, keep only matt and calico.
3. Any white & pink color fish
4. poor tail shape
5. Body shape & fin shape
6. Color
7. Positively select 20 best fish for keeping. all the rest will go to local fish market (just kidding, I mean auction at the local fish club or fellow hobbyists).

Is that a reasonable step by step process for culling Bristol. I am thinking about keeping less than 20 frys for this year.



Terry

Hi Terry
Firstly I'm a bit worried by your statement - SMALL tank, FULL of fry. First step, as soon as possible, transfer them all to a large container/pond/tank - say 10 square feet in area.
Fry with obvious body deformities can be eliminated quite easily and early. Try culling from the top in a white bowl rather than from the side in an aquarium. As this is your first spawning of Bristols grow the rest on until they are about an inch long.
Now use a small glass tank, a 4 or 6 inch cube would be ideal, and check the fish from the side in batches of 6 or so. Remove all metallics BUT still check every tail and if a metallic has a beautiful upright "B" shaped tail keep it. If any metallics have soft (transparent/red) gill plates these are mock metallics. Don't be in a hurry to cull them - they make useful breeders.
As this is your first Bristol spawn I would also suggest that you remove all pinkie matts - snow white (might have a slight peppering of black spots) and button (solid black) eyes. Again, if any have beautiful upright "B" tails, keep them for the time being.
Concentrate purely on the tails of the calicos at this stage. Keep only those whose caudals are fully rounded and where the leading rays are held at between 5 past 5 and 6 o'clock (That is the perfect "B"). Check the heads at this stage removing all those with head/mouth deformities.
In all probability the number of fry would by now have been reduced by 80%.
Keep feeding, filtering and water changing and let me know when the younsters are 2 inches long when we can do the next cull.
John

[Cincy Ranchu]

1. get rid of anything that doesn't swim correctly or is a sinker.
2. Split into 3 tanks of at least 20 gallons each, larger is better.
3. Enjoy the differneces until they start to get secondary colors.
4. Remove all but 6 metallics and 6 matts.
5. Split to six tanks when at 5/8" or give 50% to interested parties, beginners and friends. (much better than culling for the hobby). Offer six fish back to the person you got the stock from originally.:yess:
6.Watch for blue to appear, throw everything else out including all the matts but the 6. The six matts you keep should have dark areas.
7.As they move to dry food, watch for fish with crooked mouths and pitch.
8. At 1 1/4" offer on this page at $7 each 20/$100. Enjoy them all.
THX

GH:exact:

[terryl]

John and Gary:

Thanks a lot. I will follow the suggestions and keep you posted. I have, may be, a hunderd plus. frys in a 10 gallon tank. I will do one more round of selective breeding this week and will end the Bristol breeding for this year.



Terry

[bigbettadan]

As my pappy used to say, keep the best forget the rest!

Dan

[Cincy Ranchu]

As Foster says;

Some people want to be in control and win everything, others are more interested in promoting the hobby---" some folks always want to play club and be king".

Culling 80% of baby Bristols at an age prior to seeing full color development risks throwing away the best fish, these are simple single tails not Ranchu or Veiltails, culling culling and culling a singletale is just stupid _ consensus of Foster and Hater 11-11-09 via phone.:badidea::badidea::badidea:

Besides Dan you don't even breed Veils or Bristols, get some experience before going down the road of poor web information.

[bigbettadan]

I was just talking in generalization from years of breeding show fish, birds, and rabbits...



Dan

[johnatoranchu]

As Foster says;

Some people want to be in control and win everything, others are more interested in promoting the hobby---" some folks always want to play club and be king".

Culling 80% of baby Bristols at an age prior to seeing full color development risks throwing away the best fish, these are simple single tails not Ranchu or Veiltails, culling culling and culling a singletale is just stupid _ consensus of Foster and Hater 11-11-09 via phone.:badidea::badidea::badidea:

Besides Dan you don't even breed Veils or Bristols, get some experience before going down the road of poor web information.

Sorry Gary but you worry me somtimes. Bristols are not simple Singletails and I have far more experience at breeding Bristols than you and Foster have when put together. The tail is very difficult to achieve and can easily be lost through incorrect culling and subsequently growing on and then breeding from fish with poor tails. The tail is more important than the colour but in any event think again about the 80%. Approximately 50% go immediately (pinkie matts and metallics) and even in a good spawning around 10% will have other major faults, body conformation etc. At least half (another 20% plus)and probably more of the remainder will have tails which are not carried correctly, are seriously lacking in substance or have folds in the caudal or twists in the pectorals. Some will almost certainly have parts of their finnage - caudal and/or dorsal - missing. The latter has been a major fault in the UK for a number of years now and is proving very difficult to erradicate as it is a very dominant "characteristic". UK breeders are beginning to get on top of it but it is still here and is in the American Bristols too.
Colour is the last thing to cull for and certainly other than removing fish that are muddy coloured or mainly red is best left until the fish are at least 2 inches long as the colour takes a while to settle. What Dan said at the last Social was very true - " You have to build the house before you can paint it".
Foster thinks "retail", he needs to because that's how he generates his income and whilst you do not need to, your thinking too is going down the same retail route of if it swims someone will buy it. Hence the real lack of willingness to cull. We have had this discussion many times and I guess we will never agree but I maintain that passing on rubbish to potential hobbyists, even as free gifts, is not the way to go. Better to only pass on quality stock albeit at the appropriate price so that if they do breed from them they at least have a chance of producing something half decent. There can be nothing more disappointing for a new hobbyist to have that long awaited first spawning and then realising that all the babes are junk.
Fancy Goldfish (which includes Bristol Shubunkins) are totally man made and are far removed from what Nature intended. We have a constant battle against Mother Nature who will do all she possibly can to convert our "treasures" back to her colourless carp "one step at a time". It's only through vigourous culling and selection techniques that we stand a chance of staying on top and if those thoughts make me play King, well just call me "Your Majesty". It has a nice ring to it don't you think - even better than "Ambassador"!!!!!!!!
John

[sc569]

There is a use to gifting fish that are sub par, at least to one's own standard of excellence.

Most goldfish keepers will kill their fish within a year. At least they get to have the experience of raising some fish.

You can up the ante by charging a nominal price but the fish will still turn belly up within a year.

It would be gut wrenching if you were to give away a prized fish only to hear that it met an untimely end. I imagine that this has happened innumerable times.

I can only say that I do not produce enough fish that I want to use as breeders to even sell them for a "fair price". Ergo, I give them away before they are culled. Once I have started the culling process, that spawn is rigorously examined.

My experience is that any fault in a breeder shows up later in the progeny in spades!! Even the smallest fault become magnified. They are only acceptable when the fish are at an intermediate stage of development and the faults are ruthlessly culled.

[bigbettadan]

As Gary said, I don't breed Bristols, but I am very interested in them. But it has nothing to do with the color I admit. When I first saw a good one, I was amazed on how similar they were in fin structure of a halfmoon betta, a fish that I spent years developing and showing at the highest level. Myself and Leo Buss(professor of evolutionary biology at Yale) preached the importance of ray structure, number, and is selection of breeders, and a need to be ruthless in culling for such. It was not popular with some, which is their right, but offen led to disappointment in their lines and show results. This claimed many would be breeders to say they would be too difficult to perfect, and that the fish would never be the norm. Some even claimed that we did not share our stock, Which was crazy. I gave so many fish away, and sold very little. The trouble is after one generation, the line would deteriorate due to lack of proper selection/culling. Times have changed though, Of course now they are the available by the pages on Aquabid. It doesn't mean they are now easy. Without proper selection, you will get spawns containing no halfmoons within 2 to 3 generations. Of course color was my last factor I worried about, and it is a much more vital part of the Bristol. Oh well, someday I hope to work with them, but right now I must focus on ranchu.

Dan

[terryl]

Hi John,

I read your post again and again. Would you please further explan this statement:

"Keep only those whose caudals are fully rounded and where the leading rays are held at between 5 past 5 and 6 o'clock (That is the perfect "B")."

I don't exactly follow it. Are you talking about the rays that are closeset to the body? I.e. the verticle line of the perfect B.

Terry