Bristol & Veiltail breeding

[terryl]

I moved my bristol indoor from an outdoor pond about a month ago. They are now in their 55g tank. In the last few days, they started breeding. I now have a talk of newly hatched frys and more are coming - they breeded again this morning. I got the fish from Gary last year. They are now about 6-10 inches, with very beautiful blue color.


The F1 veiltails I have from last year (parents are from Al Foster and Gary) also started breeding behaviors. I was able to keep 4 good quality veils from the hundreds frys from last year. They are now about 3-4" long. Two are metallic green and one is calico and one is white matt. I will let them breed once I can find tank space for them.

BTW, do you call the metallic green the wild type? Will you use it as breeder? I have difficulty to differential between metallic green and bue. May of the "blue" fish people show in pictures are more like metallic green for me. Anyone has a good picture of Phylli Blue veiltail?



Terry

[Cincy Ranchu]

Green metallic is generally called an uncolored, Foster and I generally use the uncolored to breed with a calico or red metallic. Wierd thing is that the uncolored typically typically have better finnage than the colored groups
THX GH

[OrandaDan]

Green metallic is generally called an uncolored, Foster and I generally use the uncolored to breed with a calico or red metallic. Wierd thing is that the uncolored typically typically have better finnage than the colored groups
THX GH

Whats the typical outcome of uncoloured and red metalic crosses? Thanks, Dan:coffee:

[terryl]

Yes, Gary. I have the same observation. I cross the uncolor veil you sent to me with a calico mail. The frys are both metallic green, calico white, and calico red / white (without the blue color).

Terry

[terryl]

I posted some pictures of my bristol breeders in the picture area. Their eggs hatched yesterday. Enjoys

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1367

Terry

[johnatoranchu]

Breeding uncolored metallic fish bred from calico parents back to calicos can be a good cross for as well as strengthening finnage it can improve the calico coloration, particularly the blue and black. However it is seldom a good idea to cross an uncoloured metallic bred from coloured metallic parents back to calicos as this cross will almost certainly produce calicos with washed out coloration with any blue and most of any black disappearing before the fish are a year old. The golden rule is always select breeding stock on their phenotype (their looks) unless you have bred the fish yourself in which case you will have some knowledge of their genotype.
John

[terryl]

John,

That is very helpful. I still have the calico male who father these fish. They came from a cross of a uncolor female and a calico male. The calico male only have red and white, no blue or black. I hope the back cross will add blue and black to the fish.

Terry

[Veil Gal]

OK, John, Streamson, et. al., This has my attention. Why would an uncolored metallic veiltail that has COLORED metallic parents, be less desirable than an uncolored metallic veiltail from CALICO parents to produce the next generation of veiltails?? I passed on getting some of Streamson's uncolored metallics, thinking I have very good quality metallics of my own to cross with my calicos--great body and fins.But you are suggesting that the genetics from an uncolored metallic from two calico parents will be different than an uncolored metallic from two red or red/white parents. Can you elaborate? Michelle in "balmy" Elmira, New York

[sc569]

The wild type fish from the red parents are likely to lose their black pigment later on.

In the classic genetic analysis, there are 4 alleles for the demelanizing trait. Fish with all 4 alleles for the dominant demelanizing trait turn red within their first few months. Fish with fewer turn red later. Fish with only 1 demelanizing allele might turn red at 1 or 2 years of age, perhaps after you have used it as a breeder. Such a fish when bred to a calico will produce metallics and calicos that will likely lose their black pigment after their fist year, leaving you with a red and white calico.

This can happen with metallics also, producing yellow metallic fish.

The male parent of the fry that I sent to you is a wild type metallic. It is partially yellow now, indicating that it has inherited at least one of the demelanizing alleles. So, I am looking carefully at the fry to make sure that I catch the ones that lose their black pigment and exclude it from being used as a breeder.

[johnatoranchu]

Hi Michelle
sc569 explains the difference perfectly. I'm afraid I'm not good at "genetic speak", I just know because I've been there, done it and lived with the consequences.
sc569 - are you Streamson? I think your calico Veiltails shown on a different thread are outstanding with excellent body shape and finnage. I hope this line is/will be available to seriously minded American Veiltail enthusiasts who join the proposed North American Veiltail Society.
Colour is disappointing however, at least from my perspective as ideally I seek "Bristol Shubunkin" coloration in all calico fish and the colour of the fish in the photos is rather pale. Did I read that black Moors had been used in their production? For years, mainly through the 60's and 70's, we Brits believed that black Moor to calico was a good way to improve the blue and black colours in calicos. Big mistake! Ocassionally F1's were good initially but invariably and gradually the blue and to a lesser extent the black faded whilst the F2's were invariably just red and white by the time they were a year old. Basically the "black" metallic behaved in exactly the same way genetically as the red metallic.
I would be interested to learn how you plan to improve the colour, assuming of course that your colour "ideal" is the same as mine!
As at last month I no longer have any calico Veils. I simple had too many varieties so decided that the only Veils I would keep would be metallics particularly as one of my close friends has one of the best strains of calico Veils in the Country. A few generations back I suggested to him that colour could be improved by using uncoloured mock metallic fish, produced from his calico line which hitherto he had simply culled. I had previously "proved" this belief with such crosses in Bristol Shubunkins. He now uses that cross on a fairly regular basis and their colour has improved. I don't know if uncoloured mock metallic Veiltails are available in the States.
The construction of your Veiltails looks excellent; much better than those depicted in photos you sent me a few years ago which had Ryukin shaped bodies. Please make this line available to American Enthusiasts.
John

[sc569]

Dear John,

Yes, I am Streamson (sc569).

Thank you for the kind words about my fish. It is interesting about how the stock has developed. The hump has disappeared and the head shape is getting more pointed.

I do like the body shape and the finnage. I am trying to get the twisted pectorals to a minimum but it is really hard to get rid of as it only shows up very late.

The color has been a problem, I admit. The moor was a great-grandparent and it was the only way I could keep my veils going. Plus, the moors had outstanding characteristics like excellent finnage and body shape (but frog shaped heads and smaller growth rates). I did try to keep the moors as I had both males and females but they grew so much slower than the calicos that I basically gave up on them.

The color is getting better - the recent generation has nice speckling under the red and white on some of the fish. I am not breeding from the fish that are only red/white.

As for keeping the line going, I have sent fish out to several people in the US. Janet Purdum got some via Dave Mandley. She crossed those to Al Foster's Philly veils. Veil Gal has some of mine and afertuna also got some. So, the fish are getting spread out.

Also, Gary Hater has tested my observation that the Chinese medium length delta tailed fish, when crossed together, would produce veiltails. He is now convinced that that is the case as he has obtained veiltails from fish that he purchased recently. Thus, there is now a demonstrated and reasonable strategy to obtain veiltails from fish that are judiciously purchased. There is no danger of the veiltail disappearing forever. They can be regenerated from selection of the correct breeding stock.

Now, I am just trying to eliminate the innumerable small flaws that detract from my appreciation of the fish.

Thanks and Hello from New York,
Streamson