Injured xxxxxxxxxxxx

[Emilio]

Can someone tell me if my Ranchu will heal or not? What can I do to help it heal aside from good water and food.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkThKf1ib1U

Emilio

[Ranchumaniax]

Hi Emilio,

First of all, your thread name is really sound like you are trying to ruin my reputation. If you planning or mean to do so, i will have to defend and explain myself.

Your fish got damage because of 2 reason. First, a mistake occur by the USPS to post "No-signature Request" on your package. I gave you 2 free fish. This is why it is such a bad idea to plan out on leaving them at your front door and have them wait for you after come back from work at night time. Once the accident happen such as your case here. Fish will suffer. And i couldn't giving any replacement since those fish that got damage are free fish. I do not have to lied to you about the status of the fish as you think i am. I have about 4 more SVr that i need to take picture of and post on my website. Instead of taking picture, so i gave them to you as my gift. Still have 2 more and going to give out with next E-bay listing. Plus i need space on new fish that just arriving.

Anyway, first thing you will need to do is to care more about them!
Dont forget that they're in the bag for 2 nights. So they getting very stress.
Beside what i have already explain to you via e-mail. I just want to say that your water in the video look quite dirty with all the poop. I think you already start to feeding them. It's actually too early to feeding them. Since i told you before that you need to starve them for at least period of 2 days and only if they look healthy enough. So now you might want to feed them less and keep water in good condition. Or just put those streeful fish out and separate them with other fish. You also should always "QT" your new fish before adding to your other fish.Also turn the off light.

Base on my experience, I found somebody that bought fish online and right after they got them. They start to feed and keep it like they have them for some period of time. And no QT. In result, they getting sick or died. Then start to throw bad mouth to the vendor. And vendor still have much more fish that still active and healthy. Don't forget that vendor have those fish for some period of time before you make selection. They can survive here in good health and active. Why did they dying or injure there? In goldfish keeping, if your goldfish is dead or damage. You might want to find out what happen first! In real life, start blaming oneself before other.

Paul xxxxxxxxxxxx.com

P.S. I shouldn't give you any free fish, especially when you didn't ask for them. My bad!

[Emilio]

I am not trying to ruin you, Paul. I posted this Under "Goldfish Clinic." Where sick/injured goldfish are posted.

If I want to ruin you "xxxxxxxxxxxx." I will write something bad about you. Please read my post again and if it sounds that I am ruining "xxxxxxxxxxxx" which I don't think I am.

My post is about how to get these fishes well....that's all.

[Bucks Koi]

I am not trying to ruin you, Paul. I posted this Under "Goldfish Clinic." Where sick/injured goldfish are posted.

If I want to ruin you "xxxxxxxxxxxx." I will write something bad about you. Please read my post again and if it sounds that I am ruining "xxxxxxxxxxxx" which I don't think I am.

My post is about how to get these fishes well....that's all.

Then the title should say Injured Ranchu

[Bucks Koi]

Back to your problem many times when I was in Japan I saw this same thing with koi, the breeders would always say the same thing Sinking Disease. What they were saying is bad swim bladder. If it was my fish it would be in warm water with salt and NO FOOD. If you seen how these companys handle boxes it would make you think twice about shipping. Good Luck. Patrick

[LePoissonRouge]

Hey Patrick, you said you would add salt, raise temperature and fast but can a fish ever fully recover from swim bladder problems and be normal again or are they doomed? Has anyone ever seen a complete turn around by a "sinker" or a "floater"? Also is there a difference in how you would treat a fish with swim bladder damage and those who seem genetically prone to the disease. Is swim bladder painful for fish? Eliminating floating foods has helped me greatly to manage symptoms in my ryukins but in my very limited experience, even with great care, swim problems just get worse over time as the fish grows. What I'm wondering is, should I fight for these fishes lives and keep hope alive or just humanely euthanize with clove oil?
Thnx. Angel.

[Cincy Ranchu]

move the fish to a dark tank and feed only adult frozen brine shrimp for a week. I have had some success fixing this but it takes darkness and soft food

[Emilio]

Thanks for the responses and I will give an update in week.

[Bucks Koi]

Hey Patrick, you said you would add salt, raise temperature and fast but can a fish ever fully recover from swim bladder problems and be normal again or are they doomed? Has anyone ever seen a complete turn around by a "sinker" or a "floater"? Also is there a difference in how you would treat a fish with swim bladder damage and those who seem genetically prone to the disease. Is swim bladder painful for fish? Eliminating floating foods has helped me greatly to manage symptoms in my ryukins but in my very limited experience, even with great care, swim problems just get worse over time as the fish grows. What I'm wondering is, should I fight for these fishes lives and keep hope alive or just humanely euthanize with clove oil?
Thnx. Angel.


I never said Fast when raising the temp is should be gradually.
Well everyone has his or her own opinions of to feed or not to feed for me it's not to feed at least for a week or two to see if it can recover from the stress of the shipment..
This fish has been damaged somehow during shipping.
From what I have seen in koi they only swim up to feed and then back to the bottom. I have never seen a floater recover either.
And I have even tried the peas.
Do they feel pain ? I could never answer that, can anyone but the fish.
It can't do any more harm to try to save the fish but to euthanize, that is the owners choice.
I have no problem putting a fish down if that the last resort.
So throw in the towel or fight it's your choice.
Patrick

[LePoissonRouge]

sorry, by "fast" I mean no food.

[SeaWitch]

I have several "rescue" fish with SBD. In my opinion (and yes, I have done alot of research on SBD) a fish will never recover from it and as the fish gets older, the SBD gets worse. As long as I can control the SBD symptoms with diet, clean water, etc. then I let my fish be. However, when the fish gets to the point that they can no longer live a good life and seem to be suffering, I put them down.

However, we are getting very OT here. Sorry!

[George Ludrosky]

I have had some pretty good luck with adding epsom salt to the tank for floaters and for sinkers. Not alot, just a half teaspoon for 20 gallons of water.

Hope this helps.

[o ranchu]

Sorry about your fish. I know how you feel, I also felt very bad when my fish was sick. =((

Hopefully your fish will get better

[Mikey V]

Hey Patrick, you said you would add salt, raise temperature and fast but can a fish ever fully recover from swim bladder problems and be normal again or are they doomed? Has anyone ever seen a complete turn around by a "sinker" or a "floater"? Also is there a difference in how you would treat a fish with swim bladder damage and those who seem genetically prone to the disease. Is swim bladder painful for fish? Eliminating floating foods has helped me greatly to manage symptoms in my ryukins but in my very limited experience, even with great care, swim problems just get worse over time as the fish grows. What I'm wondering is, should I fight for these fishes lives and keep hope alive or just humanely euthanize with clove oil?
Thnx. Angel.

Hey, I recently learned some info that might interest you!
First, Goldfish do not experience "pain" as most mammals do. A better word would be "discomfort". Most fish, and insects for that matter, have brains incapable of feeling the sharp injury warnings we do, but rather may have a sensation completely different. Ever see an ant/fly/spider with a damaged wing of leg? They limp around awkwardly, until the leg is snapped off completely, at which point they wander away like nothing is wrong. A fish may be aware that something is not wrong, or damaged, but they are not suffering the same pain we would. Their brains are simply not as advanced as ours, simply because they don't need them to be.
hopefully this helps, let me know if I can be clearer about anything!

[johnatoranchu]

Can someone tell me if my Ranchu will heal or not? What can I do to help it heal aside from good water and food.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkThKf1ib1U

Emilio

Sorry Emilio but your fish is showing the classic signs of a fish which has "gone heavy". It's probably fair to say that the condition is generally genetic and is often in some way linked to the fish's age as I have known the condition to appear suddenly and within a few days of one another in siblings which had been in different ownership for over three months and in my own fish which were in seperate ponds. Also when growing on pinkie matt Bristol Shubunkins there have been several ocassions when 2 or 3 siblings have developed the symptoms at precisely the same time. It might be reflection caused by the tank's glass bottom but to me the ventral contour already looks flat and wasting has begun. It's not "damaged", just dying. Whether you choose to prolong its life or not is up to you but I know what I would do (and I guess most readers on this site know what I would do too!). The only good news is that you've done nothing wrong but you do need to watch the one which has a damaged caudal to both lobes. This I suspect is fin rot not damage in transit.
John

[Emilio]

Sorry Emilio but your fish is showing the classic signs of a fish which has "gone heavy". It's probably fair to say that the condition is generally genetic and is often in some way linked to the fish's age as I have known the condition to appear suddenly and within a few days of one another in siblings which had been in different ownership for over three months and in my own fish which were in seperate ponds. Also when growing on pinkie matt Bristol Shubunkins there have been several ocassions when 2 or 3 siblings have developed the symptoms at precisely the same time. It might be reflection caused by the tank's glass bottom but to me the ventral contour already looks flat and wasting has begun. It's not "damaged", just dying. Whether you choose to prolong its life or not is up to you but I know what I would do (and I guess most readers on this site know what I would do too!). The only good news is that you've done nothing wrong but you do need to watch the one which has a damaged caudal to both lobes. This I suspect is fin rot not damage in transit.
John

Thanks for the reply John. According to Paul "xxxxxxxxxxxx." All 4 fish were in great condition before he ship them out to me. All were swimming ok and did not have caudal damages but when I got them they were in bad shape. Since they stayed in a small bag for 2 days and it hardly have any air in the bag. All were gasping for air. I even thought one of them had died and water was very dirty brown. This is the reason why the smallest of the 4 is in this condition and the other has damaged caudal to both lobes. They are getting better except for the small one. Oh well, that's life!!!

[Ranchumaniax]

keep me update....maybe we can figure something out down the road.


paul

[johnatoranchu]

Hi Emilio
I do not doubt that the fish were in perfect condition when Paul packed them but stress levels caused by transit can never be calculated. This stress could well have been the final trigger to cause this "heavy" condition to show itself. Historically whenever I imported fish from Japan they were all dead within 6 months. Now, when my Ranchu buddy Andrew and I import Ranchu from Japan we stipulate how many go into a box - basically we only allow 4 small (about 3 inches) fish per box whereas commercial importers would certainly pack 15 to 20 such fish in the box - they need to or their transport costs would increase dramatically. Clearly transport costs us a lot (including all the paperwork etc) it cost us about $300 per fish on top of the price we have paid for the fish but since we went down this route all the fish have bred and "lived for ever". When ordering further fish from vendors in the Statea perhaps you could stipulate how they were to be packed but of course such arrangements would come at a cost.
John

[SeaWitch]

I even thought one of them had died and water was very dirty brown.

You stated that the fish were in the bag for two days? I have ordered fish from Steve and it takes two days for me to receive the fish (he ships on Wed. and my fish arrive Friday evening) and the water was NEVER dirty in their bags nor were the fish gasping for air. Not only that, but I have ordered fish for my friends as gifts from Steve and every one of them arrived in excellent condition with no problems. Then again, as stated before, different breeders have different ways of shipping their fish. I am very sorry for what happened to you and for your poor fish.

[Ranchumaniax]

After determine the fish from the video. The damage on both robe look very balancing and the damage can not be done by beating up in the bag. There are only 2 ways that the damage will happen.
1. I did damage them or;
2. You did.
I have take many fish to many show such as Indy, Louisville, Chicago, and Maryland. Some fish such as Oranda which has longer tail and more fragile tail than Ranchu. I have never damage them from shipping out. In additional, if the fish has damage or sick, i normally notify the buyer before i shipping them out if it is ok to ship out damage fish or replace sick fish. Most of SBD, Floating, and bottom sitter will be pack with pure oxygen then put them into deep sleep. Damage fish will be given to local store.
So as your case here, the fish already been starving for period of 3-4 days with daily water change. There might be some poop left since i always heavy feed my fish. By the time i shipping them out, i do not notice any problem with their swimming or damage on the tail. I have talk with one of professional goldfish and he said that the damage he saw in the video only occur by human hand. With my experience that i've shipped fish out more than thousand goldfish, i do not think that i made that damage, especially Ranchu.

Paul

[Ranchumaniax]

Hi Emilio
I do not doubt that the fish were in perfect condition when Paul packed them but stress levels caused by transit can never be calculated. This stress could well have been the final trigger to cause this "heavy" condition to show itself. Historically whenever I imported fish from Japan they were all dead within 6 months. Now, when my Ranchu buddy Andrew and I import Ranchu from Japan we stipulate how many go into a box - basically we only allow 4 small (about 3 inches) fish per box whereas commercial importers would certainly pack 15 to 20 such fish in the box - they need to or their transport costs would increase dramatically. Clearly transport costs us a lot (including all the paperwork etc) it cost us about $300 per fish on top of the price we have paid for the fish but since we went down this route all the fish have bred and "lived for ever". When ordering further fish from vendors in the Statea perhaps you could stipulate how they were to be packed but of course such arrangements would come at a cost.
John

Hi John,

I do not know who are you using to shipping out goldfish from Japan to your country. But Japanese did a very bad job on shipping fish out internationally. Plus, if you ordering goldfish from them. All you are getting are normally their trash. It is true that cost of shipping from Japan are crazy. If you add it to your fish cost, it could sometime cost for a Japanese cars.:)

If you talked about commercial shipping fish that contain only 15-20 fish per box. Mean that you never seen the big importer. I have couple time gone to goldfish warehouse once they have some fish in. They have at least 50 in one box for fish 3" long with very less water, just to keep them wet. So most of what you see in your local store are coming in this way. I believe this is the normal way for Chinese exporter. Also no insulate box.

As for me, i have only get maybe 10-12 fish of 3" fish at 15-20kg per box. This is enough water and oxygen for 36 hours journey. They'll get here with no damage, If the fish do not have damage in Thailand.

You're right not you cannot be cheap on shipping if you want them in your hand with good condition. Like this case here, there not much room for shipping cost.

Paul

[johnatoranchu]

Hi Paul
Our contacts in Japan are our friends and Ranchu Sensei (Teacher/Master) and have been so in my case for nearly 25 years. The fish we buy are bred and specially selected for us by our Sensei. There is no involvement with middlemen, wholesalers, retailers or indeed anybody with any commercial interests other than of course the Agents who we have to employ to undertake the paperwork, translations etc., but even so the fish themselves are very expensive (but we are buying quality BREEDING STOCK from well established lineage which goes back to the second World War when our Sensei, Nogi san, was Uno san's number one pupil). It is generally accepted that Uno san was largely responsible for resurrecting the Ranchu after World War II.
As you say exporting anything from Japan is very expensive but, as I'm sure you have found too, importing Goldfish involves so much expensive paperwork that importing is very expensive indeed and against the cost of the paperwork the additional costs involved in spreading the fish through a couple of extra boxes is small in comparison.
John

[Ranchumaniax]

I know, that's why you have good Japanese fish. :)
There are also some small window on ordering fish from Japan, but kinda risk on their skill of shipping. One thing i do not understand. The japanese ship out their koi around the world with no problem, but no on goldfish....

Paul

[bigbettadan]

while this is an interesting thread, the title makes you expect to see Paul with his arm broken or something.......LOL

John is now an offical Jinchu Kai judge..... congrats on such a great honor. I hope to continue to learn from you.

Dan

[Emilio]

After determine the fish from the video. The damage on both robe look very balancing and the damage can not be done by beating up in the bag. There are only 2 ways that the damage will happen.
1. I did damage them or;
2. You did.
I have take many fish to many show such as Indy, Louisville, Chicago, and Maryland. Some fish such as Oranda which has longer tail and more fragile tail than Ranchu. I have never damage them from shipping out. In additional, if the fish has damage or sick, i normally notify the buyer before i shipping them out if it is ok to ship out damage fish or replace sick fish. Most of SBD, Floating, and bottom sitter will be pack with pure oxygen then put them into deep sleep. Damage fish will be given to local store.
So as your case here, the fish already been starving for period of 3-4 days with daily water change. There might be some poop left since i always heavy feed my fish. By the time i shipping them out, i do not notice any problem with their swimming or damage on the tail. I have talk with one of professional goldfish and he said that the damage he saw in the video only occur by human hand. With my experience that i've shipped fish out more than thousand goldfish, i do not think that i made that damage, especially Ranchu.

Paul

Really Paul? You are blaming me for what happened to the fish? If so why would I post this thread in the first place if I did the damage? SERIOUSLY!!! Where is your "CUSTOMER SERVICE?" Why can't you just accept the fact that this shipment did not go well like your other shipments and too bad a couple of the fishes-SUFFERED. I posted this thread to get my fish well not to find someone to blame. You're UNBELIEVABLE!!!

[afnaveils]

Congratulations John! and to Andrew James another British Jinchu Kai ranchu breeder. I learnt that news too! Thanks for your teachings on ranchus John!

while this is an interesting thread, the title makes you expect to see Paul with his arm broken or something.......LOL

John is now an offical Jinchu Kai judge..... congrats on such a great honor. I hope to continue to learn from you.

Dan

[afnaveils]

Emilio and Paul, there is always a risk / hazard shipping fish. Damage can occur and this incident makes us aware that it can happen to any of us. We are not talking about a whole shipment here but only one fish. I hope you guys can settle this. I don't think the harm was intentional.

[Ranchumaniax]

Base on the this topic start with "Injured xxxxxxxxxxxx". That's sound to me like you try to blame me and ruining my company. Doesn't sound like you looking for help. All i reply was the fact of this case. The fish that look like bottom sinker just arrive at your place less than 2 days. All suggestion has been given via e-mail as you contact me. Next minute, i found out that you post on here. IMO, i do not feel like you asking for help. Most people when they see this post, think of me as an idiot who lack of knowledge and practice. If you asking for help, you should be naming your topic as "Help on Sinker" or "New arrival" or something without mention name.

My customer service are not the best but i believe it is acceptable. I will replace fish if necessary or reasonable, not sound like stealing. You are only 3 hours away from me and have a real big problem. Regardless to shipment that i have shipped to Switzerland, Brazil, Philippine, and Canada. It take 2-4 days to arrive and has no problem. The only problem for long distance was England when we lack of paper work. Nothing long with the shipment. This is why it's hard for me to accept that fish suffer or damage from my packaging. I would be more than happy to do whatever it's take to satisfy any customer who bought fish from me if they have problem with my fish. As long as, pictures or video showing status of fish in the bag of their arrival and meet all criteria as stated on my website.

Paul xxxxxxxxxxxx.com

PS. You already has replacement fish in the bag. So i believe my customer service should satisfy you.

[thomasn]

mods should close this thread

[Jed]

When I first read this topic, I thought that Paul was injured. As I continued reading, it wasn't Paul, but a problem with one of his ranchus. The topic is confusing to say the least. I'm hoping you guys have resolved the problem through emails because as I read on, the topic is getting heated and should be closed before it gets out of control. I'm going to take the liberty of doing that as of now.