Never Use Meds???

[SeaWitch]

A while back, a new member came to grace my forum. This person was very knowledgeable on some GF subjects, but disagreed with me and other members on the forum when it came to using meds for GF illnesses.
According to this person, things such as salt, garlic, and herbs, amongst other "home remedies" could cure ANY illness a GF gets, including dropsy.
Now I am not one that reaches for GF meds for every little problem they may have and try to avoid them when I can. But, when it comes to full-blown dropsy and other serious infections, I would rather use GF meds than to let the fish suffer while I dip it in a mixture of garlic and salt water over and over and over.
I was just wondering what others' opinions are on this?:youtellme:

[bekko]

The herbal stuff will often work. Unfortunately, by the time you realize that it is not going to work the fish may be too far gone and it may be too late to save it with any treatment. The key is to have good diagnostic capabilities so you can quantify from one day to the next whether the fish is better or worse than before.

-steve

[WakinAZ]

"Tao of fish keeping", from wetwebmedia.com -

"Taking action, though important, at the right time can be detrimental when it is time to sit fast. Aggressive tank maintenance and excellent water conditions go a long way to allow for the fish's immune system to work. Constantly assessing if treatment is worse than disease is imperative. Treating in a timely manner when the disease is worse than the treatment can save fish. Treatment when the treatment is worse that the disease kills fish. Excellent fish husbandry oftentimes buys us some time to make this critical decision."

I am not opposed to using specific meds when necessary, but they really should not be necessary more than once in a very great while for a small scale hobbyist (several tanks, maybe a pond) like me. If you are seeing dropsy or any other malady more than once every several years:


Larger water changes, maybe lower stocking.

Quarantine, no skimping, no cheating. Do not rely on appearance, quarantine. 14-21 days.


As Doc Johnson said somewhere in his writings, "Salt at the first sign of trouble." To that I would add "then test your water". I got a heck of a surprise when the water in one of my tanks turned cloudy all of a sudden. Well, I was treating it with Dimlin on top of salt (supposed to be OK), but I had damaged my biological filtration. I actually had measurable ammonia and nitrite for the first time in years. Oh, and why was I using Dimlin? Because I cheated and did not quarantine a big healthy fish from a local fish store before plopping him into my display tank. The second day I noticed a fish louse on him. Dang.

The only meds I have used in the last several years are malachite green, Prazi-Pro and Dimlin. All part of proactive quarantine procedures for fish from questionable sources. Fish from good sources get salt and observation along with quarantine.

One more quote and I'll stop rambling: "Take care of the water, and the fish will take care of themselves."

[SeaWitch]

I could not agree with you more!!! Those are two things I stress to everyone I talk to, especially newbies to fish keeping-Good Water and a Long QT! I love Steve's quote on Qting, "I QT for so long that I forget where I got the fish from by the time it is over!"

IMO, most fish illnesses are caused by poor water quality and overstocking the tanks.

While I am on this subject, there is another question I would like to ask. Are there any meds that you all have heard of that are bad to use? I have heard it say that Formalin and Malachite Green (often found in Quick Cure) are usually worse than the fish illness itself and that also goes for the Mardell's Maracyn products as I head they can cause damage to internal organs.

As for salt, I LOVE salt and I will go for it before any kind of med if I know it can work. I have used it for ich, torn fins, fin rot, and other things on my rescue fish that I got that were in bad shape. Salt can work wonders!!!:exact:

Thanks for your replies!!!

[johnatoranchu]

Many off-the-shelf remedies particularly in the UK are merely various mixes of formalin and malachite green and generally work OK but they must not be used with salt - that mix is, or so it has been said, lethal. I like using salt too and if salt and increase in temperature doesn't work I tend to look for medications for marine fish - rightly or wrongly I deduce that such medication must be OK in freshwater to which salt (cooking not marine that is) has been added.
John

[suphi]

Certain types of infection require medications or fish will not survive. The hardest part of the equation is to know what to use and when to use it.

[WakinAZ]

Malachite green dosed properly is fine. It gets a bad rap because the proper dosing is not widely understood or explained on most packaging. I use Kordon malachite green because their dosage instructions achieve the ideal concentration for treating all fish (0.05 mg/l or ppm), not just the tough ones who usually survive overdosing.

Formalin is harder to justify since better, safer meds are available for most of the things formalin is supposed to cure. It is one of those cures that rivals the ill.

I tend to avoid off-the-shelf "shotgun" mixtures of various meds, since they usually contain more than you need for the actual problem, thus stressing the fish unnecessarily. These also encourage treating before you understand what the illness actually is. The pure forms of single medications (malachite green, etc.) are not heavily marketed like the potions are - less profit in the bottle.

I understand that some of the good meds we have here in the US are harder to obtain in the UK and elsewhere. Also, I believe the Kokos site some pretty good resources on various GF meds: http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/typesoftreatment.html , and http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/76980-medication-contraindications/ That being said, navigating that site makes me want to take some meds, very confusing layout... GK is my main GF site, hopefully Fred can manage its growth in an organized fashion.:backingout:

[bekko]

The advantage of the malachite/formalin mix is that there is a synergy which makes both malachite and formalin more effective when they are used in combination. So, the concentration of chemical can be reduced without compromising effectiveness.

-steve

[SeaWitch]

Yes, Steve, but the problem is that alot of fish keepers, including myself, don't know what that safe amount to dose is. I know that, when dosed as the pakage of meds say (for instance on Quick Cure), my fish have had bad reactions to it and therefore, I stopped using it altogether.