Veil types

[afertuna]

Gary brought up a few of the types and I thought it would be nice to get some input from Gary, John, Streamson and everyone else on types of Veils and their differences. Pics of them and discriptions from the american and world view. It would be nice especially for us that are newer and becoming interested in them.Here is the begining of the list I know of and please feel free to add to discriptions ect.
Philidelphia Veil Tail
Chinese Veil Tail
English Veil tail
Veil tail telescope
Veil tail Oranda
Single tail Veil

any additional types???
Thanks Allen

[johnatoranchu]

Interesting thoughts but I guess those who know me know that I tend to be a purist and I therefore hope that the Veiltail Society will quickly establish one and just one "ideal" Veiltail for members to aim for. I see a distict difference between Veiltails (the variety) and other varieties with veil tails. Therefore a veil-tailed Oranda is a type of Oranda, and not a type of Veiltail. Similarly a veil-tailed Telescope is a Telescope; (if they're black metallic then "we" call them Broadtail Moors). Veil-tailed Ryukin are Ryukin etc., etc. Now a single-tailed Veiltail is something quite different. Here in the UK such "Nymphs" have historically been regarded as culls - total rubbish! But then I started visiting the US regularly and quickly became "Mandley'd" and now have various single tailed Veiltails swimming in my tanks. Surprisingly, having seen these and other "experimental" single tails in my fish house, several other UK hobbyists are gradually becoming attracted to them - they are certainly more attractive "swimmers" than twin-tailed Veiltails. However, with hand on heart they cannot really be regarded as a variety of the Veiltail but rather a variety of single tails.
John

[bigbettadan]

I agree with John, you need a single Veiltail standard to keep breeders on the same page........

Dan

[afertuna]

John I agree with you there is a definant difference between Veil Tail the breed and Veil tail type finnage. Thats why I wanted to start this thread so we can start defining the breed and types. I think it is interesting I have been on other goldfish sites and lfs they try to pass long fringe tails as veil breeds(I dont care for the stringy fins). I dont know if thats really the case that long tails are all veil. I am new to all of this and I wanted to get you and others that have been around to put their knowledge into here with types ect.ect. Thank you John and I hope to hear more from you in here and that you will continue to advise and become part of this.

[Cincy Ranchu]

The English Breed to a standard for competiton purposes, now that I have seen two UK shows, and three English fish houses, "playing the purists game, results in loss of lines and color types".
Genetics and breeding to a standard are two very different things. 90% of Breeders in the US do not or rarely compete. Making the US club a copy of the English rules will rsult in Philadelphia Veiltails, grow like Ranchu and we will have <15 members........NFM:exact:

[johnatoranchu]

Wow, Gary! I thought that the main reason for American hobbyists to think in terms of specialist clubs for Ranchu and Veiltails was driven by a collective wish to improve those varieties in the US/Canada. Sorry, but if American hobbyists continue to breed and cross varieties indiscriminantly and go soft on culling and distribute stock which should in fact be killed then the quality of American bred fish will continue to slide and near total reliance on imported stock will continue. I had hoped that your trip to the UK would have highlighted what can be achieved through serious and selective breeding techniques where the emphasis is on quality not numbers. And whilst Experimental crossings can be fun and yes can (possibly, but in truth unlikely) create new colours and "varieties", it is only through the efforts of seriously minded Breeders purifying lines and, albeit to a very limited extent, establishing pedigree lines that individual varieties will be preserved and progress.
John
P.S. 15 or 10 or even 5 dedicated members will be far more productive than 150 who "play about".

[bigbettadan]

Do you have any pics of top English Veils right now?? I would like to see how close they are to their standard.

Dan

[johnatoranchu]

Will try to post some soon Dan. Am also conscious that things have gained momentum in the American Ranchu Association and I have yet to add my thoughts as promised at the Social. Perhaps I had better do that first.
John

[bigbettadan]

Yes, please do, We need you......

Dan

[Veil Gal]

I am a veiltail breeder and fancier. I have followed these discussions with interest. Perhaps I can add some "food for thought."
I have been showing purebred dogs for a looong time; and have been showing and breeding Pembroke Welsh Corgis for 26 years.
Pembroke Welsh Corgis and Cardigan Welsh Corgis are two separate breeds, but at one time in Wales they were classified as a single breed. To the uninformed, the only difference between a Cardigan and a Pembroke is that the Cardigan has a tail. But the differences go WAY BEYOND that--and in fact the two breeds are thought to have very different genetic backgrounds DESPITE the similarity between the two Corgis. An example of this in goldfish would be calico ranchu and edonishiki.
There are purebred breeds that are divided among "variety." An example would be dachshunds. There is only one breed of dachshunds, but the three varieties are divided by coat type--smooth, long hair and wire coat. The outline, head type, etc. are the same in all three varieties. This might be applied to veiltails. A "purebred veiltail" could have different varieties classified by color (metallic or calico, for example).
Or eye type--normal or telescope. I know I have bred two normal eyed veiltails and had offspring that were veiltail type, but had telescope eyes. And these fish were not from wild outcrosses. If the eyes were "normal" you would have no problem identifying these fish as veiltails.
I agree with John's "purist" ideology. There should be a clear standard. It would mean knowing what the typical veiltail gene pool produces and then deciding which traits are considered ideal, desirable, faults and disqualifying/definite cull.
Let's face it. Some fish have great caudal fin, but a bent dorsal. Some fish have everything going for them, but twisted pectorals--a common characteristic in veils. Sometimes when breeding, it is good to know if certain traits are harder to obtain, and whether it is worth retaining fish with outstanding qualities that are not as strong in other areas. This is where sharing experiences with other breeders becomes invaluable.
My two cents, Michelle in Elmira, New York

[Cincy Ranchu]

Do you have any pics of top English Veils right now?? I would like to see how close they are to their standard.

Dan

I have video of all this years winners, will post shortly

[afnaveils]

Genetics and breeding to standard are different things but not irreconcilable. I think the priority in the USA is to maintain/save the Philadelphia veiltail or type. All other veiltails (Chinese or other) can be raised along side the Philadelphia veils and bred to reach the established standard. When this point is reached, they will have the characteristics of the Philly veil because I think that the nationwide standard was established with the Philadelphia veiltail as the model (British veils were derived from the Philadelphia Veiltail from my understanding of their history).

Now, how do we save/maintain the Philly veils. The small number of breeders of that particular variety in the USA are far apart and with limited numbers of these fish. The gene pool is slowly wearing thin and that is where I can understand Gary's concerns. In the UK, I think they have the luxury of having many more breeders at closer travelling distances. So, the question is how the British maintain the Bristish veils without having a genetic crash. This is where John can help us. I think in NAVA we should put our energy in saving the Philly veils and developing other lines of veiltails all based on a standard and leave out all other varieties with veiltail finnage for now.

So John, how do your members maintain the British veils? Do you bring in new blood in you lines? How do you bring new blood?

Philadelphia veiltail is ONE line whereas ranchus have tens or hundreds of lines and is hence a different case.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Wow, Gary! I thought that the main reason for American hobbyists to think in terms of specialist clubs for Ranchu and Veiltails was driven by a collective wish to improve those varieties in the US/Canada. Sorry, but if American hobbyists continue to breed and cross varieties indiscriminantly and go soft on culling and distribute stock which should in fact be killed then the quality of American bred fish will continue to slide and near total reliance on imported stock will continue. I had hoped that your trip to the UK would have highlighted what can be achieved through serious and selective breeding techniques where the emphasis is on quality not numbers. And whilst Experimental crossings can be fun and yes can (possibly, but in truth unlikely) create new colours and "varieties", it is only through the efforts of seriously minded Breeders purifying lines and, albeit to a very limited extent, establishing pedigree lines that individual varieties will be preserved and progress.
John
P.S. 15 or 10 or even 5 dedicated members will be far more productive than 150 who "play about".

Maybe 4 serious veiltail breeders of veils in the entire country and another four playing, is of no value to the US hobby. While the UK hobby is pure gamesmanship allows veils to be entered as veils and then later in its' life entered as a oranda. MY POINT IS JOHN, THE UK HOBBY IS VERY REPRESSIVE IN NATURE AND INSTEAD OF PROMOTING THE HOBBY AT LARGE IT PROMOTES EXTREME COMPETITIVENESS TO AN ARTIFICIAL STANDARD. THE UK ORANDA STANDARD IS THE PRIME EXAMPLE, IT TOOK A GIANT VIBRANT FISH AND REGRESSED TO A FLUTTER SWIMMER THAT REQUIRES VERY ABNORMAL GROWING CONDITIONS.:badidea:

Instead of sharing the best extra fish with new people, they are generally slaughtered (culled) as these folks may be new competitors. UK club by the standards, generaaly does not promote new membership. John's ideals are too stiff, inflexible, and it does not promote the hobby in general, big mistake for a veiltail club in the US.

GH

[afertuna]

I think we are all in agreement that NAVA should definantly work on the Phillie and preserve it here in the US. I think that Should be a definant priority and bringing back the blue line of Phillies. At the same time I do think we have room here for the hybrids and finnage types. I think we should promote all. The more people are welcomed and educated the more people will fall in love with Veils again. I take Pride in my Phillies and my other Veils and win at AGA shows and I have to say that in the last few couple years people are starting to gravitate to them. I wish this country was smaller so all of us could be as close as in England it would make this so much easier to accomplish as a group. I hope this group will allow us to help each other.Educate us about the breed,breeding,showmanship,promoting and saving Veils.Making our distance soooo much closer through the web.

[bigbettadan]

This discussion brings up an interesting topic concerning the goldfish hobby in the US. In my experience, there are 2 types of breeders, generalizing of course, as some people are a mix of both. There are the strict "purists" like myself and John. This type of breeder tends to be focused on striving for excellence. They also tend on being top show breeders as well as judges. My mentors in the betta hobby taught me this road, and the "art" of it all..... Then there is the "mad scientist" type. The love to see what they can make as far as new breeds or adding new colors to established ones. The usually have alot of fish due to lots of projects, but usually don't have alot of top show fish since the extra grooming time it takes. Let me be the first to say the hobby needs both types to thrive. Personally, I am jealous of the UK guys as thats the type of hobby I love. But I also feel that the current state of the goldfish hobby in the US suffers from a lack of participation of the purists type. We have plenty of mad scientists, and that great, but I hope to mentor a few more purists to bring "balance" to what we have here...


Dan

[bekko]

Dan, is it possible that the two types you mention are really two stages in a development process?

An important thing for the mad scientist to remember is that if it is feasible to do, then someone would have already done it.

-steve

[harzan]

Well, I think I am both and so are most of you. I think anyone that breeds more than 2 varieties has a little mad scientist in them. If one were truly a purist, they would stick only to Ranchu, as it is the KING. I had a lot of fun discussing Ranchu and VailTs, or listening to John mostly, at the BS (hahah, ha). What Steve mentions may be so. John was all Mr. Purist for the first day, but all of sudden...the secrets poured out...years of trying to get acceptable edonishiki, raising Tosakins, Orandas, Vails, and probably a couple others too...BRISTOLS!...Thinking of BLUE bristols...the secret mad scientists comes out of the closet.

No worries Dan...we all know you have other varieties you wish to bust out of the closet too....LFR, Blues...maybe one day?

Let's all admit it, Goldfish are addictive and it is really hard not to let in a few varieties in the side gate now and then. We all make the space for a second or third variety..."oh for the kids"....or "for my grandkids". This all sounds like some of the Koi guys speaking about their goldfish!

I say...whatever keeps you interested in goldfish, raise em. They are all good! Some other junkie will love them just a much.

Happy Goldfishing!

[VeiltailGuy]

I believe there is room for the "purist" and the "experimental hobbyist". Think bout it this way, if you believe that there should only be "purists" and you scare away all the the newbies or youth with your strict beliefs. What happens when those people are no longer with us or in the hobby, there goes a entire line of fish! if there isn't the experimental hobbyist, then I believe it wouldn't be hard to potentially lose a variety like the veiltail. What it comes down to its there is room for both groups of hobbyist! There will always be purists and the casual hobbyist and it is my belief that they are BOTH VERY IMPORTANT TO THE HOBBY! the more fish in the hobby the less likely to lose any variety, do we want the veiltail to come close to the situation of the BEP's? That could easily happen if we don't share our less than perfect fish to other hobbyists and allow them to work with them...

Just my thoughts,
Rick:exact:

[bigbettadan]

I said we need both types, and it is just a generalization, meaning everyone is unique. But I do feel we don't have enough purists currently to get these clubs going. But I hope to change that.

Dan

[VeiltailGuy]

Dan,
My post was not specifically directed towards you, I how ever do agree with you, purists do have there place and it seems we do need a few more of them, was just my 2 cents:exact::exact:

sorry for the confusion:thumbUp:
Rick

[afertuna]

Well we have both and some of us also maintain both. I hope to see more of the Veils in Shows across the US.

[harzan]

I do not know too many "purist", only Jon actually, and Dan....since I think they have a BIG smile on their faces when they hear "THAT" word.

I just do not think "Purist" is the right word to describe....I guess. In my conversation with John and another local "purist" breeder, Purists really only breed Ranchu. I believe John will try to correct me, but I can picture the BIG smile on his face after he answered my question..."what types of fish are you keeping?" I think people like John are really "serious" breeders. I guess it really does not matter what we label types of keepers...just have FUN doing what ever you do with your GF.

Different strokes for different folks...and availability of time, environmental factors are different all over our planet.

[bigbettadan]

I don't think people really got what I am saying here, the label is not important. Ok, try this.

I feel we need more breeders that want to raise high end show fish and compete to go along with our guys that want to create new varietes and colors, if we are going to make a club work like the UK....

Oh, Did I mention Harris in a culling machine?? LOL

Dan

[harzan]

Most kidding aside, the one thing I really learned this year is I need to cull much earlier. There will still be lots to share with friends and local clubs.

Disasters or near disasters are never fun and water costs are nuts.

[afnaveils]

Hi! My name is Gerard and I think I'm some kind of purist too. (Ted would laugh, he knows my comments)

Well, I have 4 or 5 varieties (ranchus, BEPs, veils, etc) but I keep them all separate. I would even keep ranchus from different sources separate and don't intend to breed them together unless I would have a disaster. I guess I am like that because of the history of goldfish. Generations of breeders have culled/selected goldfish over decades to achieve development of varieties and bloodlines we have today. I'm not a purist in the raising method but one in keeping the varieties as pure as possible, for some kind of respect for all the work, effort and energy of our predecessors. But if need be, to save a variety, sure I will have to resort to out-crossing. I don't have the ambition to develop new varieties. I don't have the space nor the time in this lifetime.

[afnaveils]

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1360

Now that we've seen examples of British veils, are we up to the challenge?

[broadtail]

It is difficult to get good stock in England but I don't know if it is down to competition or simply scarcity. I have met a couple of goldfish keepers and both of them were able to sell me some reasonably priced stock (i.e. veils). I'm a beginner not as keeper but as a breeder, and although one of them does show his fish he didn't seem worried that I'd be competition! On that count he has nothing to worry about. Most fish keepers have very little room in the garden for fish houses or ponds. In spite of this there are some spectacular goldfish bred in this country, particularly veiltails. I lived for years in the US and only saw two veiltails, and they couldn't compare with what can be had if you look hard enough here. Northwest England is chilly with mild winters and cool wet summers. I'll be lucky if I can get the water temperature to 68F without bringing them in the house. I think competition is not what leads to shortage - its lack of space. Whatever the problems with the English club system, you have to admit that fine veiltails, fit and healthy can still be found here. From what I've seen they are superior to all others. As for orandas and other types; beautiful ones are freely imported so not much need to develop them in the UK.

[broadtail]

It is difficult to get good stock in England but I don't know if it is down to competition or simply scarcity. I have met a couple of goldfish keepers and both of them were able to sell me some reasonably priced stock (i.e. veils). I'm a beginner not as keeper but as a breeder, and although one of them does show his fish he didn't seem worried that I'd be competition! On that count he has nothing to worry about. Most fish keepers have very little room in the garden for fish houses or ponds. In spite of this there are some spectacular goldfish bred in this country, particularly veiltails. I lived for years in the US and only saw two veiltails, and they couldn't compare with what can be had if you look hard enough here. Northwest England is chilly with mild winters and cool wet summers. I'll be lucky if I can get the water temperature to 68F without bringing them in the house. I think competition is not what leads to shortage - its lack of space. Whatever the problems with the English club system, you have to admit that fine veiltails, fit and healthy can still be found here. From what I've seen they are superior to all others. As for orandas and other types; beautiful ones are freely imported so not much need to develop them in the UK.

[afnaveils]

Indeed, I've seen a certain number of excellent veiltails in the UK. Derek Mills' calico veils are really exceptional. Don King may have high quality calico veils too but I have not seen his fish personally although I've seen crosses with Derek Mills' strain. John Parker has many veils of a metallic strain. He's got reds and great R&W. Tony Roberts has the too.

In the USA, Gary Hater and Greg Rau have a few lines going. Although I have not seen Al Foster's veils lately, I guess he is still producing his great metallic Phillies. Streamson Chua is producing his own line of calicos. Ichtius (David) has a collection of a few lines (Purdum, Thomma, Gary, Foster, etc) and probably producing his own. Rick (Veiltailguy) has collected some veils for future breeding. This is a cross section of what I know about veil breeders.

[afnaveils]

Yep, I apologise to Allen Fertuna. I meant him (afertuna) instead of Ichtius (David). Sorry Allen!

[bigbettadan]

So, how was the trip???

Dan

[afnaveils]

The trip was great! I spent 5 days talking gf with John and other passionate hobbyists at the GSGB and JCK shows. I've seen a collection of high quality goldfish in the main varieties all in one place at these shows. I was impressed by Andrew James' set-up and his every excellent ranchu. This guy knows each of his ranchu by heart (parents, which year, why he keeps them and in what program he'll use it, etc, etc.) and he has a lot:worship:. I visited Derek Mills who is famous for his calico veils. I met the master of Bristol shubunkins (Tony Roberts). Yes, I had a great time! Thanks again John!

Dan, I put some pix in my GK album.

[bigbettadan]

Great pics! I hope everyone takes a look.

Maybe you could post your thoughts from the Jinchu kai show on the ARS forum...

Dan

[sc569]

I think that, when a spectacular veil shows up, any one who has kept goldfish for some years will identify it as such!

The goal of most people on this forum is to breed fish that fits their concept of an ideal fish. That is the difficulty - producing the "type" that fits your ideal.

Breeding to a standard would be good if it is attainable.

While the Philadelphia veiltail was developed from fish that originated from Asia, there is a difference that I have noticed between the Philly veils and my own veils from recent Asian origins. The Philly finnage has more distinct points at the angles whereas my recent veils have rounded tips. Not sure if any one has made this point before.

[afertuna]

I think that, when a spectacular veil shows up, any one who has kept goldfish for some years will identify it as such!

The goal of most people on this forum is to breed fish that fits their concept of an ideal fish. That is the difficulty - producing the "type" that fits your ideal.

Breeding to a standard would be good if it is attainable.

While the Philadelphia veiltail was developed from fish that originated from Asia, there is a difference that I have noticed between the Philly veils and my own veils from recent Asian origins. The Philly finnage has more distinct points at the angles whereas my recent veils have rounded tips. Not sure if any one has made this point before.

I totally agree with you on the difference on the phillie lines and the non phillie. I have noticed that before.Personally I think they have a moore/butterfly in their background. I like both to be honest....
Allen