Bubble chin - a cull?

[terryl]

I have about 40 baby ranchu from my unplanned spawn in early. They are about 3/4 inches now and I plan to do some heavy culling this week. There is quite a few fisy, 10+ what have one or two bubbles under the chin. Is it more a genetic problem or enviromental issue. I originally believe it is a genetic issue, but since I also got bubble chin (a lot of them) in my veiltail spawn early this week, now, I think enviroment, mostly water quality, may play a significant row. Any input.

Shoud I cull all frys with bubble chins? Will they ever recover?

Terry

[johnatoranchu]

This is a very bad genetic fault. If 10 out of 40 are affected don't just cull the 10 - cull the lot and their parents. Sorry!
John

[HNLim]

Maybe you should consider starting a new variety.

[terryl]

Thanks guys. It will be heart breaking to cull the whole lot. I did culled about half of them. Now I am down to about 30 fish. I hope to keep 10 for my show tank. I will post some pictures later.

They are eating BBS each morning, dry food late afternoon, and white worm evening. I also do a 70% water change each evening.

Terry

[bigbettadan]

What line of ranchu is it??
Dan

[terryl]

I don't know exactly. They are from a fellow breeder.

Terry

[johnatoranchu]

Hi Terry
The reason I suggested "culling the lot" is that this fault is quite dominant. In my experience this appears in many or indeed most spawnings throughout most varieties. In the normal course of events it is simply just another fault to cull for but in your case fish with this fault are in such numbers that it is a cause for concern. To keep any of the fish from this spawning to use in future breeding programmes could be disasterous. This fault has been likened to the cleft pallet condition in humans but I don't know whether this is fact or fiction. However, I have witnessed items like food and gravel in these chin bubbles which clearly have got there via the mouth.
John

[terryl]

Hi John,

Yes, I am very surprised by the large percentage of frys with this problem (40%-50%). When I was young and working in our family fish fram, I hardly saw even a very low percentage of fish with bubble chin. Most of the culls at that time were for single tail or poor back shape. I think it may be more because of generations of line breeding.

I am not a serious breeder now and would hestitate to spend money on acquiring a new breeding stock. I will try to out-cross it with my Chinese lion head next year.

Terry

[Mikey V]

why not raise one or two...in the interest of science? >:)

[Mikey V]

Hahahaha! A "Jay Leno Ranchu"!

[bekko]

then, there's this...
http://www.raingarden.us/other-fun-bubbles.jpg

-steve

[afertuna]

then, there's this...
http://www.raingarden.us/other-fun-bubbles.jpg

-steve

I have two calico bubble eyes that have the bubbles under the chin like that pic........I have to say I am disturbed slightly by them LOL

[terryl]

I posted pictures of these babies in the picture area.

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9712#post9712

enjoy.

Terry

[terryl]

Sorry, I posted the picture in the wrong thread. Here is the correct one:

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9715#post9715

Terry

[marlin08]

then, there's this...
http://www.raingarden.us/other-fun-bubbles.jpg

-steve

My 8 year old son says that is the coolest fish EVER and why don't I have any that cool....LOL!!

[johnatoranchu]

I think it's because we're not 8 years old!!!!!!
John

[bekko]

that is the coolest fish
They are called "fun bubbles" or "four bubbles". There is an individual in China who claims to have been the developer, but his web page has disappeared. If you can appreciate eye bubbles, then you should be able to also appreciate chin bubbles.

-steve

[afertuna]

Steve you want mine LOL!!! I got two in a batch of Bubble eyes they actually only have one chin bubble and small dorsal

[johnatoranchu]

They are called "fun bubbles" or "four bubbles". There is an individual in China who claims to have been the developer, but his web page has disappeared. If you can appreciate eye bubbles, then you should be able to also appreciate chin bubbles.

-steve

But Steve the Bubbles are totally different. Bubbles on Bubble-Eyes are add ons to the head and the bubble sacs are filled with fluid and no foreign bodies can find their way inside the bubbles. Chin bubbles on the other hand do not appear to have a total barrier between them and the mouth so foreign bodies can enter the bubbles thus having the potential to cause inflamation, disease, etc., etc. They are a dominant fault so producing them to order is simple - no one needs to claim that they've developed them unless of course this Chinese man has developed Bubble-Eye type fluid filled sacs under the chin in which case that is entirely different; ugly but different!
John

[terryl]

Thanks....I did another round of serious culling today. Down to about 20 fish now. all bubble chins are gone, so does fish with any tail or back shape problems. One more question on culling:

Will you cull those with single anal fin? Among the 20+ in the tank, quite a few of them have only one anal fin or have one that is slightly deformed.

Terry

[johnatoranchu]

Terry, sorry but with such high percentages of bubbles and single anals this spawning is a disaster. What will you do with any fish you keep? Breeding from them will simply increase the percentages of such major failings in future spawnings. Congratulations on your culling so far but you know what I'm going to say next don't you - don't stop now, keep culling - zero would be a good number to finish with!
That's the proper answer but of course this is a hobby and if the fish have a special characteristic that you want or are trying to stablise then I guess you will need to keep some in which case cull for that special feature. Ideally cull all fish with single anals unless they are the ones expressing the special feature but whatever you decide don't breed single anal to single anal, that is unlikely to produce any keepers. With all the single anals I'm wondering whether or not you have already culled for divided tails. If tails are joined too then KEEP CULLING.
John

[terryl]

Thanks John,

I culled all single anal fins today. Another one-third of the baby ranchu were gone. They are so cute and beautiful, all have good body shape, round and smooth back and nice tail shape. I offered them free in the local fish forum, explicitly saying that they all have single anal fins and should not be used as breeding stock, but, otherwise, would be nice fish for show tank. They were gone within an hour.

Now I am down to about 15 fish. All are eating well and growing rapidly. some are growing much faster than other other. Hopefully, I can eventually keep 10 as my breeders and for my show tank.

I will keep you posted.

Terry

[johnatoranchu]

That's all good news Terry. I know culling is difficult. I guess no one, not even me, finds it easy but it is essential if desireable qualities in any livestock are to be maintained/improved and to allow as much room as possible for the better examples to develop. Perhaps in some ways it's easier for you guys in the States to cull in that you have a thriving game fish following and if unwanted stock cannot be sold or gifted or if quality is below a certain standard (which is determined by the individual) then I guess they can go as "feeders" so you don't get to see the "final deed". Here I simply overdose the fish with anaesthetic at three times the recommended dose. The fish simply go to sleep and die. I have thought several times of having one or two predatory fish to do the deed but it's silly giving such fish tank/pond space which could be used for more goldfish!
Yes, please keep us posted as your Ranchu develop.
John

[terryl]

Here are update photos of the ranchu frys. They are about 3 months old, about 2 inches long. I eventually keep 15 fish. A few of them do not have smooth back. A couple have deformed or single anal fin and will go to the local fish club aution - they are too big to be culled. I should be able to keep a few for future breeders.

Terry

[johnatoranchu]

I guess you are interested in SVR rather than TVR whereas my preference is the opposite so perhaps I shouldn't comment on them but to me they are all rather short in the body, too fat, have little hood development, do not appear to have started changing colour yet and have rather pronounced eyes. In view of all the major faults which have appeared in this spawning, my earlier advice remains unchanged. I would not recommend keeping any as potential breeders.
Sorry.
John

[terryl]

Thanks John. I will take your advice seriously. I will grow them for a few more month until early summer. May be, most of them, if not all, will go to the local auction. Thanks a lot for all the help.

Terry

[judge]

They look great Terry. I have some coming up but I couldn't cull the non split tail for this spawn. To me the smoothness of back curve and tail join was more important. Of course the split tail is always more desire.

I think I will get about 15 or so...

How do you make them so fat at this age?

[terryl]

All they can eat meals all day long - dry foods all day, forzen mysis or blood worm at night.

[harzan]

Terry,

I think these are nice fish! I personally would keep a nice side view if I could get some. If you keep even a nice small group of 6 with split tails and nice backs....keep them going for a few years and then decide.

[bigbettadan]

Blasphemy Harris! Side view? LOL

Dan