Please Judge

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Please give comment and Judging on this Fish.
Thx in Advance!

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/p013.jpg

[orandablue]

i know nothing about ranchus but that tail is tucked up like a rabbit in a hat!

[afnaveils]

Nice SVR! Backline smooth! Good headgrowth. Tail looks a bit small for the fish. Then again, I don't know much about SVR.

[Cincy Ranchu]

For a 2.5" fish that is probably 3 months old it is a nice fish. How does it swim and is the tail split?

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Thank you for all comments.
That picture was taken at early of this year.
Here is the current picture.

This fish won 3rd place in Thailand's show(I personally believe it was the best svr) and Best Lionhead/Ranchu at MAKC2009.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/p033.jpg

[bigbettadan]

The biggest problem I have with a fish is it has a TVR back, very flat compared to the chinese SVR... I love this as a TVR breeder, but I don't know if the goal of Thai breeders is, if it is to produce basically a TVR with a pinched/too high of a tail. If it is, mission accomplished. Say what you want, the TVR has exact Japanese standards. The "SVR" in the chinese form is a much rounder shorter fish with a higher arc on the back. This is much different than this fish. Are the Chinese and Thai SVR going to be different breeds? Can they come to a single standard? Why not breed to the Japanese ideal which is "TVR" but the fish also look good from the side, which top Japanese TVR do??? Just asking the hard questions..LOL

Nice fish, if I could change the tail set.......LOL

Dan

[Cincy Ranchu]

I think the fish is a cull, send it to me, I'll pay freight and dispose of it.....LOL!

Absolutely perfect even if you grow TVR!

Nice!

[suphi]

That fish is actually my ideal SVR. Nice tuck-in tail, smooth back, and good wen growth. Most importantly though, kudos to the keeper who apparently has mad skills raising the fish to this qualtiy.

[Mikey V]

The biggest problem I have with a fish is it has a TVR back, very flat compared to the chinese SVR... I love this as a TVR breeder, but I don't know if the goal of Thai breeders is, if it is to produce basically a TVR with a pinched/too high of a tail. If it is, mission accomplished. Say what you want, the TVR has exact Japanese standards. The "SVR" in the chinese form is a much rounder shorter fish with a higher arc on the back. This is much different than this fish. Are the Chinese and Thai SVR going to be different breeds? Can they come to a single standard? Why not breed to the Japanese ideal which is "TVR" but the fish also look good from the side, which top Japanese TVR do??? Just asking the hard questions..LOL

Dan

i would view the "SVR" (i think a different name is needed) is much more visually appealing from the side than the TVR, in the fullness of the back & belly, the smooth back and the pinched tail, which facilitates a more appealing view of it from an aquarium.
Now, i know there are people who view "SVR" as somehow inferior to TVR, but let's not confuse the stricter breeding/judging standards and higher prices as necessarily superiority. I believe Ryukin have the most lenient standards, but you can't argue that Ranchu are "better" than Ryukins for this reason. Its apples and oranges!
Instead, let's view them like soccer as opposed to indoor soccer. They are the same basic game (fish) with a slightly different set of rules (judging standards) and venues (pond vs. aquarium or top vs. side judging) They are both the same game, but when its snowing out we can't play soccer, and when we don't have/prefer a pond to raise fish we can use an aquarium.
I think we should use and refine the standards already in place for judging ranchu from the side, and come up with a more differentiating name than side-view ranchu. Maybe Chinese ranchu? i think there are other people who know more about the subject and can come up with a proper name...
just my two cents, and this is a beee-U-tiful fish!
PS-Thanks for asking the hard questions, because if nobody did, than change couldn't happen!

[bigbettadan]

I see your point, but the above fish looks like a good TVR from the side, but with too high a tail set.I would love to see it from the top. I really hate the term SVR, since the ranchu is a Japanese breed bred to their standards, the only true ranchu. I like the "SVR" but it does need a better name.

Dan

[Bucks Koi]

We get it already dan.
Your a SVR hater.
Patrick

[bigbettadan]

No I am not...... I just want to promote the true ranchu....

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Base in my understanding of Ranchu. Language and naming playing a lot on its judgement.
Some country such as Japan and Thailand called Ranchu as preference of TVR, and TVR only.

SVR considered as Lionhead. In Lionhead, there are many different types or bloodline. Saying like Moor-Butterfly-Demekin, they are same kind of goldfish, but different types/bloodlines/genetics. Same case here with Side view Ranchu/Lionhead. As you already know, originally Ranchu came from Lionhead.

This fish called "Japanese Lionhead" in Thailand. In Singapore will called "Thai Buffalo Side View Ranchu" and "Side View Ranchu" in North America. I personally called them "Japanese Bloodline SVR" since i knew these fish has the look of TVR. Also, in price reference, this fish retail for more than US$1k and sold!

You may compare this SVR to the TVR underneath here on their Side view profile as reference.

PS. Looking at these SVR or Japanese Lionhead. You might need to have an "open-mind", because they're like art ... same as TVR! NO fixed or standard!

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/showroom-216326.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/showroom-765162.jpg

[bigbettadan]

This make my point well. Using japanese standards, you can judge this fish more detailed than the SVR, since though they judge from the top, as John Parker can attest to, they also handle the top fish and look at them from side view as well. This TVR has a slight imperfection of curve from the side view. It could also use more length of head from the eye to the mouth(more rectangular head), as well as more futan development. I would like to see the fish swim to really judge the tail, but at least the pic makes it look a little weak in the tail shoulder. But this is still a strong fish, with a powerful back and peduncle, and nice hood development overall. As you can see, even though this is a very nice fish, the japanese standards make for a more critical analysis. You can do this with "SVR" as no one has a real clue what those standards are, other than a smooth back. It makes judging a SVR less of a science and more a crapshoot. As a breeder and a showman, this is something that bothers me.....

BTW...... I would love to see this SVR from the top, because from the side it really passes the eyeball test. If you go the the Hess book, there is a pic of a Japanese 3 time champion from the side, and it looks very similar with a less high of tail set....

Dan

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Where did they pick up Top View ranchu to look at its side view profile while judging?

[bigbettadan]

Japan....... They do check the back curve too.......

Dan

[King_oF_Ranchu]

I dont know which show in Japan you've attended. I personally never been in Japan, but i heard that in All Japan Ranchu Show. They do not pick up the fish while judging them unless the case of fish they're very competitive with another fish. All judgment from above came out the same result. Then they'll start look at general detail on side view profile such as back curve, fins, etc. However, this is a rare case.

[bigbettadan]

Thats different info then what I was told by people who have been there. Yes, they only do it to the top fish when making final selections, which I said.

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Who gave you the info? I thought you've been there.

[bigbettadan]

No, I have been to shows in Singapore, not Japan. Anyway, I am done with this thread, as it is becoming personal and not constructive.

Dan

[bigbettadan]

No, I have been to shows in Singapore, not Japan. Anyway, I am done with this thread, as it is becoming personal and not constructive.

Dan

[Mikey V]

PS. Looking at these SVR or Japanese Lionhead. You might need to have an "open-mind", because they're like art ... same as TVR! NO fixed or standard!


A Very nice point! :exact:
The more stringent the guidelines, the closer we come to all the fish looking too much alike, like breeds of dog. Having some leeway allows the breeder/groomer to develop his own unique fish!