Blue + Broadtail outcomes?

[OrandaDan]

Hi this is my first post and thread on this forum, I have a couple of questions... I have a male blue fantail (the light blue type) and would like to out cross to a (black) broadtail moor, what would be the likely outcomes of this cross? :youtellme: Idealy I would like a broadtail type caudual without telescope/dragoneye type eyes. What would be the most likely colour of the offspring from this cross? It's my understanding that blue is ressessive to pretty much every other colour, so would this mean that I could use my blue male to breed with a nice coloured female and retain her colours in the fry? thanks for checking this thread out, Dan

[sc569]

Check out the thread titled "When will my babies turn blue?"

The thread has all of the information you need to figure out the color.

The tail type has not been adequately addressed.

[OrandaDan]

Thanks, will do. Dan

[Cincy Ranchu]

You might also try crossing to a calico

[sc569]

That may or may not be an interesting cross, depending on what you are looking for.

If it is a true blue metallic rather than a mainly pied non-demelanized red/white, the progeny may be very interesting, at least in the F2. First generation should be standard calico and wild type. Intercross to generate F2 should generate calicos that do not have the red/orange pigment, leaving mainly white/blue or black.

If it is the pied non-demelanized red/white, the F1 will look like the first mating. Second generation fish should produce calicos but of poor color since they will be mainly white due to the pied color with large sections of the fish white (a situation that most people dislike, especially Chinese since white is worn for funerals).

[Cincy Ranchu]

That may or may not be an interesting cross, depending on what you are looking for.

If it is a true blue metallic rather than a mainly pied non-demelanized red/white, the progeny may be very interesting, at least in the F2. First generation should be standard calico and wild type. Intercross to generate F2 should generate calicos that do not have the red/orange pigment, leaving mainly white/blue or black.

If it is the pied non-demelanized red/white, the F1 will look like the first mating. Second generation fish should produce calicos but of poor color since they will be mainly white due to the pied color with large sections of the fish white (a situation that most people dislike, especially Chinese since white is worn for funerals).

This needs a photo or a more deatiled explanation (pied non-demelanized red/white)....

THX Streamson:exact:

[sc569]

Here is an example of what I am spewing forth about.

It is a fish from the files of the Goldfish Connection site.

It is a pearlscale that is mainly blue but has a bronze/wild type head color with a similarly colored patch near the dorsal fin.

The blue and bronze color means that the fish has not de-melanized, retaining its black pigment.

But, think of the fish if it were to demelanize. What would the color of the fish be then? In this case, the blue areas would be white (no black, no red). The bronze areas would be red (no black). So, the demelanized fish would be a basic white fish with a red nead and a red spot near the dorsal fin.

There is no official term of the red/white pattern, is there? I just made it up - pied.

[OrandaDan]

thanks for all the info guys, keep it coming! :yess: I work at a well know LFS in the UK that deals with china and so obtaining interesting fish for crosses isnt a problem... I will get a pic up for the male in question when I can find the cable that links to my camera phone! Re: the blue pearl - I had a female from the same batch as the male which I lost, due to his horny chasing (she was weaker when I got them) which had some faint pied markings. Please keep the cross suggestions coming, also how would I go about breeding a blue pearl, ive seen some on youtube which look very similar to my fish (obviously mine inst a pearl). Am I right in thinking that having a famale from the same batch would have been ideal in inbreeding to get F1 blues? thanks, Dan

[Virginia ranchu]

"There is no official term of the red/white pattern, is there? I just made it up - pied."

I think Sarasa is a term for the red/white pattern.

Cheers,

Rob

[Cincy Ranchu]

I believe Rob is correct.:coffee::coffee:

[mikeno]

Blue + Broadtail outcomes?

Did a similar cross, chocolate oranda x hammerscaled yellow common, to obtain hammerscaled (simple recessive) chocolate (four recessive gene combination) wakins. All the f1:s are wildcoloured and the ones that demelanize are all orange.

Since the blue colour is a five recessive gene combination and telescopic eyes is simple recessive there should be no blues or telescopes in f1. ¼ of f1 x f1 should be telescopic eyed and easy to recognize, but any blue ones may be very, very, very, very, very few. If you cull carefully you may find some fry that seems likely to carry some of the five genes needed to make the blue colour. I do not really know what they may look like. Because of the rather few bluish fishes I would skip the cull for telescope and broadtails at this stage.

I think the real key is the f1:s. They are carrying all the good genes you want, but heterozygote. If some carefully selected f2:s are backcrossed to some f1:s the amount of telescopes, blues and broadtails should increase. In the future, any non blue outcross will start this rather complicated process again.

[OrandaDan]

ok, so if I back cross one of the the F2 sibling/sibling to the one of the parent fish, I should be able to improve uppon some of the the charateristics, e.g. Broad tail, but it will likely start the process again? Is that about right?

[mikeno]

Yes you are right, if i’ve got it all right…

Still a f2(blue) x p (broadtail telescope) backcross is a better cross than the original blue x broadtail telescope. This time the blues may carry some broadtail influence. Problem is to get any blue fishes.

This is what you get in the original f2:
One recessive gene: ¼ (one of four is telescopic)
Two recessive genes: 1/16
Three recessive genes: 1/64
Four recessive genes: 1/256 (one of 256 chocolate in colour. Should be a good f1 backcross, if you don’t get any blue ones.)
Five recessive genes: 1/1024 (one of 1024 blue in colour)

I guess the number of blues may be lower because they may be a weaker fish.

I have not found any easier way than using the f2 x f1 backcross to start with yet. I may do a backcross to chocolate oranda later in my chocolate x hammerscale cross. Mainly to make the chocolate colour better if needed. Since hammerscale is a simple recessive gene and wakins a basic type of goldfish it should be fairly easy to do. I have no experience in breeding broadtails.

If you can find a calico (non telescopic even better) broad tail I think it would be a better cross than the telescopic black. The black colour is kind of complicated and may make things more confusing, read Bwleungs blog on this subject (http://mirrorscalegoldfish.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-colour-in-black-moor-goldfish.html). Just keep the wildcoloured f1:s from the calico cross and breed them.

This is good reading:
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/29/61.pdf
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10876647/Goldfish-Varieties-and-Genetics

[OrandaDan]

Thanks again, I think the general concensus is that it would be better to go for a calico female fish, hopefully I will be going on a buying trip to london for fish imported to the UK from china within a month, so I may just see what I can get hold of:exact:

[sc569]

I hate to say this but the blog by Bwleung does not make any sense at all.

I would like to see evidence that the genetic basis for black in Moors is the same as in black Orandas. If it is the same, a cross between Moors and black Orandas should produce all black fish. If the genes that control pigmentation are not the same, all the fish will turn out wild type unless one of the alleles that produces black is dominant.

There are probably multiple systems that can produce black fish. I do know that black can be produced by multiple pigmentation genes in mammals (mice, fox, dogs).

[mikeno]

"There are probably multiple systems that can produce black fish."

Another reason not to use black fishes in this cross!

By the way here is my non telescopic black moor...
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt304/mikenophotos/moor2.png

[OrandaDan]

I like the non telescope a lot! Did it crop up in a regular telescope/dragoneye spawn? Dan

[OrandaDan]

just read the Chen brown and blue inheritance paper and it was just what I needed to work through the questions i had. It seems that the best way to get a good base stock of true breeding blues from my one male blue is to do the initial cross to calico female (broadtail if i can get it) and then back cross one of the wild type female offspring to the blue male parent. From the tables in chen's paper the ratio of blues to wild colour is better with a cross of F1 X P, than F1 x F1. Apparently the blues from this spawn should breed true:yess: It looks like the getting a broad tail in there is going to be more difficult than i thought, I think that once ive done the inital cross then the calico broadtail female will have no more to do with the breeding so this tail genetic will be diluted with every generation...

[sc569]

An intercross between F1 metallic progeny (from a calico x blue cross) will give you some blue F2s. Since you can easily get 500 fry from one or two spawns, getting some blues that occur at a rate of 1/256 should not be impossible - the theoretical yield is 2 blue fish out of 512 F2 fry. The odds are bad but not impossible. Scanning through the fry, it should be easy to pick out the rare blue from all of the wild types, even at 3 weeks of age.

The backcross to the blue sire will give a yield of 1 blue out of 16. This is probably the preferred route but, like you said, the butterflytail will be tough to get.

Then, you can pick from the blues for the non-forked tail.

[mikeno]

I found the black nontelescope at a LFS among a bunch of black moors. All of them were very small, had short fins and rather round bodies. They seemed very closely related. I bought the nontelescope!

Later I have bought different ordinary black moors with those deeply forked long tails and slim bodies that are always sold here in Sweden. Since my plan is to make black wakins they should make a fairly good cross.

I really like my nontelescope and I somewhat regret that I did not bought some of his small friends at the shop.

As said, the blue x calico cross is not impossible. If the broadtail genetics get diluted you may have to do an outcross to calico broadtails and repeat the process. Keep us updated!

[OrandaDan]

Ive been made aware of some apparently nice calico ryukins nearby, although its a competitor for my shop I may take one of the females if they're any good... At this time of year ive got my fish that im going to breed next spring growing on over this winter in heated tubs (too cold here for growth at the moment otherwise) ill keep you updated of course. I'd be interested to see the black wakins, I think a lot of goldfish breeders try wakins at some point, in fact I have an interesting little freak of nature which is fantail bodied but has (to my eye at least) a very good wakin tail - may cross him to a sarasa comet next spring... but thats for another thread :)

[afnaveils]

In a post somewhere on this site, someone mentioned developing a black veil. Can this nontelescopic moors be used? Moors sometimes throw broadtails which are the same finnagewise to veiltail (according to UK nationwide standard). However, on this picture, the tail looks like a regular fantail on this nontelescopic moor..

"There are probably multiple systems that can produce black fish."

Another reason not to use black fishes in this cross!

By the way here is my non telescopic black moor...
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt304/mikenophotos/moor2.png

[OrandaDan]

Personally I would go with the non telescope fish and cross to broadtail and cull to keep normal eyes, but then ive got a thing for broadtails:youtellme: The reason I asked if you get the fish in a spawn was because I heard that from time to time normal eyes show up in moor spawns, these usually get culled at the farm as they don't conform to standard, if you were to breed from yours, surely you would get more 'normals' as telescope is simple ressessive. Dan

[OrandaDan]

Managed to get some pics of my blue male, I think that he has a good solid form for a fantail, he's only young and very much still growing!

[OrandaDan]

He's around 4 or 5 inches long and fed on Saki Hikari green, Saki Hikari purple and Hikari Lionhead mix. I think there must be some ryukin in his ancestry, he definately has a trace of a hump, I don't think it would be too dificult to get his colour into the form of a ryukin within about 3 generations as another project! Got to keep busy :)