What nitrate level in your tank water?

[32Bit_Fish]

I normally do a w/c when the nitrate hits around 20 PPM.

Now I have two small and one big ranchus in my (40G) tank. I would do 90% w/c change once every 3 days (nitrate level is around 10 PPM).

What about you guys?

[SeaWitch]

When I had my two biggest fish in my 30g L, I did 80% wcs every 3-4 days to keep the trates below 20ppm. Now, all but one of my fish are in a 150g stock tank outside and I have no trates at all. I know that will change once I bring them back in or when it gets cold enough for the algae to die, but I'm hoping I can still get away with a big wc once a week then. Even before I got algae in the tank, my nitrates never climbed above 10ppm with once a week wcs. I guess it is just having a bigger space for them that helps the most.:youtellme:

[WakinAZ]

I do a 50-75% water change weekly, depending on how much time I have to do it. The nitrates are at 15-20 ppm at that point. My tapwater is just under 5 ppm right out of the tap :( .

Anything percentage water change higher than 75% just seems to stress out and panic my fish more than moderate nitrate levels ever would. Also I have to be careful in the summer since my tapwater gets very hot and the tank temp can get too high if I go over 75%.

[32Bit_Fish]

I'm lucky enough to happen living in an area where tap water is very clean (0 ammonia, 7.0 PH and 0 nitrate). All I need to do just add Prime and baking soda in the tap water and do as much w/c as I want.

Do clean water really promote fish growth? The shrinking/dissapearing wen is my major concern/issue of my fish. I should feed more and more w/c.


Does high level of nitrate inhibits fish growth, hence resulting a stunt fish?

The nitrate level is above 100 PPM in my LFS tank. It's unbelieveable. But all the fish seem to be swimming around and active. However, I noticed some of them has body open sore and red patches. I guess that would be the result of high lvl nitrate, uh.

[small_ranchu]

Do clean water really promote fish growth? The shrinking/dissapearing wen is my major concern/issue of my fish. I should feed more and more w/c.

Clean water is the most important factor to promote fish growth(I do 90% change twice a week / 100% once every two week). For wen growth, you need clean water and a lot of high protein food(frozen blood worm, I feed them one before I leave for work and three times after I come back).



Does high level of nitrate inhibits fish growth, hence resulting a stunt fish?
The nitrate level is above 100 PPM in my LFS tank. It's unbelieveable. But all the fish seem to be swimming around and active.

All Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate are bad for fish. I am not sure about direct relationship between inhibits fish growth VS high level of Nitrate. But when the Nitrate level is high, it will stress the fish and make them sick. Sick/stress fish will not grow as much as a healthy fish. Thus, high level of Nitrate will slow down the fish growth indirectly.

You don't want to take LFS as an example for typical fish keeping. They have
1. different filtration system
2. and high level of turn over rate.

[32Bit_Fish]

Fred,

What's your nitrate lvl since you do massive w/c.

You are feeding frozen bloodworm now?

[small_ranchu]

less than 15 all the time. I am feeding them fbw :)

[32Bit_Fish]

I added a pot of javazon like plant and some moss in the tank.

But it seems they don't reduce nitrate lvl at all.

[small_ranchu]

Make sure you clean your tank well when you have plant in it. Sometime plant might give you more trouble.

[zph2k]

Using baking soda to keep PH High? What ratio do you use?

Thanks
Zaw

[bekko]

Try to do a toxicity study with nitrate by adding chemical nitrate to clean water. I think you will find that goldfish can tolerate very high nitrate levels for prolonged periods. Yet, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that when nitrate levels are allowed to climb to even modest levels (forty- or fifty-something) in the aquarium, then bad things begin to happen.

How do we explain this contradiction? My theory is that we essentially use nitrate readings as a surrogate for parameters which we are not able to measure. It is not the nitrate that is the problem, but other changes in water quality that take place as nitrate accumulates.

I suspect that the real problem is often dissolved organic compounds (DOC), also called dissolved organic carbon. There is no test kit for DOC and it can only be measured with sophisticated lab equipment and techniques. However, there are some tell-tale signs of DOC build-up like foaming or bubbles appearing on the water surface where there were none before. DOC accumulation may sometimes be accompanied by a yellowing of the water.

DOC can be used as a food sources for certain microbes and these microbes can be used as a food source by larger bugs. So, it is not too surprising that the incidence of disease outbreaks increases when DOC is high.

DOC is as difficult to remove as it is to measure. Foam fractionators or protein skimmers are designed to remove DOC, but they are persnickety contraptions which do not work very well at modest DOC concentrations or in freshwater. So, the usual way to get rid of DOC is to do a water change. Of course, the water change will get rid of nitrates too.

Sometimes nitrate levels remain low while DOC concentrations increase. This can happen if there is a lot of plant life to utilize nitrates or a lot of anaerobic denitrification. We sometimes hear people say that all of their water quality parameters are perfect, but their fish got sick anyway. What they really mean to say is that all the parameters they are able to measure are perfect. It may be the things we cannot measure that are causing the problem.

-steve

[32Bit_Fish]

My Java is turning yellowish. Should I threw them away? I had a lot of algaes in my tank before, I believe they contributed to the death of one of my ranchu. Algaes maybe a good breeding ground for bacterias/parasites?

[32Bit_Fish]

Using baking soda to keep PH High? What ratio do you use?

Thanks
Zaw

I don't know what exact ratio is. But I normally add 1.5 tsp (leveled) for every 20g tap water (the PH of my tap water is about 7.0). I test the PH before dump the water in the fish tank.

[WakinAZ]

Good points, Steve. I've heard the "nitrate as proxy for other bad stuff" theory before, so you are definitely onto something there.

100 ppm nitrate, and the LFS fish are fine, except for the open, bloody sores... There is a difference between surviving and thriving.

As Fred said, clean water is essential. Large water changes on a regular basis are the #1 thing you can do for your fishes' health, especially if you are feeding heavily to promote rapid growth.

Algae by itself will not kill a fish. Some fish keepers promote algae growth in their tanks.

[32Bit_Fish]

The nitrate level is always at zero in a heavily planted tank or in a pond if I'm not mistaken. Is w/c still needed to get rid of other bad stuff in the water, stuff that we don't have a test kit for it.

Would liquid fertlizer contribute to nitrate level in the tank? I'm not sure having three GFs in a 40G tank would produce enough nutrient for the plants which I doubt it because my plants are turning yellow.

On the other hand, I'm afraid the fertilizer would pollute the water, hence risk of fish's well being.

[small_ranchu]

The nitrate level is always at zero in a heavily planted tank or in a pond if I'm not mistaken. Is w/c still needed to get rid of other bad stuff in the water, stuff that we don't have a test kit for it.

I have tried it and never achieved zero nitrate. Perhaps I didn't have enough plant in my plant.

IMO, I will still do water change for the tank environment.

Would liquid fertlizer contribute to nitrate level in the tank? I'm not sure having three GFs in a 40G tank would produce enough nutrient for the plants which I doubt it because my plants are turning yellow.
Basically liquid fertilizer is adding iron, nitrate, phosphate, etc to your system. At this point, you have to ask yourself what you are trying to achieve; tank decoration with plants or healthy fish. If aiming for healthy fish, I wouldn't touch those liquid fertilizer.

:coffee:

[SeaWitch]

I have zero nitrates in my "pond", but it didn't happen over night. It took me about a month or so to reach zero nitrates. However, it is a double-edge sword in a way. To achieve the zero nitrates, I had to let the algae grow. I also have green water in my pond. However, as Steve pointed out to me, algae can be a good thing and sometimes a bad thing. It takes in oxygen at night, so I am always worried that my fish don't have enough O2 at night. Also, algae can lower the pH at night and that is not good for someone who has low pH to begin with.

However, on the other hand, my fish always have good algae to snack on and this aids in digestion. My SBD fish have never been better. Also, the green water helps fish health, even though it is hard to see my fish now.

[32Bit_Fish]

The tank water is getting abit of cloudy after I started heavy feeding this week. The tank has an AquaClear 7 (the second largest in line). The nitrate was alittle more than 10 PPM before a 90% w/c last night. Only 3 days interval between the w/c.

Should I do anything about the cloudy water?

[johnatoranchu]

Sorry guys but there is no such thing as zero nitrate, nitrite, ammonia etc. in water containing fish, a reading of zero simply means test kit isn't fine enough to detect it. Goldfish are nitrate tolerent and personally I wouldn't worry about it or test for it. In fact, if you change water regularly - weekly - and in sufficient quantities - preferably 100% - you can throw away all test kits because you won't need them. I spent a fortune on electronic gadgetry and quickly realised that I had fallen into the testing trap. Now I never test and don't know where my electronic devices are - at the back of a cupboard I guess.
John

[bekko]

you can throw away all test kits because you won't need them A man after my own heart. Once you establish your routine you should know intuitively what the readings are. Adjust the routine based on what the fish tell you.

-steve

[32Bit_Fish]

I think there are always nitrate present in any type of fish tank. In a pond or a heavily planted tank, the nitrate level is so low that any test kit couldn't detect.

BTW, I was thinking since we carry out 90-100% w/c once every 3 days, why should we keep a filter on the tank? Would this be a overkill since the water quality could turn bad before a w/c.

[johnatoranchu]

With very regular 100% water changes there is no real need for filtration although it does create water movement and helps maintain oxygen levels. If water "goes bad" in 3 days I guess there is something radically wrong with water management/general fish husbandry. But remember there is a huge difference between 100% change and a 90% change - the latter simply makes "dirty water" less "dirty".
John

[32Bit_Fish]

With very regular 100% water changes there is no real need for filtration although it does create water movement and helps maintain oxygen levels. If water "goes bad" in 3 days I guess there is something radically wrong with water management/general fish husbandry. But remember there is a huge difference between 100% change and a 90% change - the latter simply makes "dirty water" less "dirty".
John

Is that 10% dirty water really makes that much difference in terms of overall water quality after a w/c? I have never thought about it. But it would create a lot of stress for the fish if I need to manually remove them out of their tank on every w/c. Also, it would take longer for every w/c when I need to chase the fish into a container and remove them from the tank. Is it really worth the extra effort/time of doing it?

[johnatoranchu]

I guess it's story time!
Imagine you ask me for a pint glass of water. I take 90% of the water from the tap (fawcett?) and I make up the other 10% by urinating in it.
Would you drink it?
No!
OK, so I pour half of it away and top the glass up with fresh water from the tap.
Would you drink it now?
Still no!
OK, so I pour half of it away again and top up with fresh water.
Would you drink it now?
Still no!
So how many times do I have to repeat this exercise?
Would you ever drink the water no matter how much the urine (ammonia) was diluted? Your answer would probably be never. You would want a clean glass and 100% new water from the tap.
So would your fish!
Regular 100% water changes should never stress healthy fish but 100% changes at irregular intervals could. Goldfish are extremely tolerent of water quality and adapt to all sorts of conditions from very dirty through to clinically clean. It's continually changing from one to the other which causes problems. When I change water in tanks or ponds I usually clean the bottom and two sides, the other two sides are left with some algae growth. This "settles" the water and "settles" the fish.
Happy water changing - think of me next time you have a glass of water!
John

[abbeh15]

That is an excellent comparison!

[32Bit_Fish]

Yeah, it's an excellent comparison indeed!

Comparing an apple with an orange. haha:worship:

Now I think why people do 100% w/c for their fish.

[32Bit_Fish]

BTW, speaking of drinking your own urine. It is actually good for your health.

It is the Urine therapy and it's also called Urophagia

Google it and educate yourself, you will be surprised.

[johnatoranchu]

Yes - right - OK - I'll leave drinking urine to Google. I'll stick with beer, wine, coffee and water (fresh of course).
John

[afnaveils]

I'm with John. I'm not curious enough to know and practice Urophagia.

[SeaWitch]

Testing my water may seem silly to some here. I do have a regular wc schedule that I do for my fish, and I do large wcs once a week on the pond and twice on my tank. However, I feel...uneasy if I don't have testing kits on hand. I guess I am still a newbie after almost three years, LOL!

[johnatoranchu]

Testing my water may seem silly to some here. I do have a regular wc schedule that I do for my fish, and I do large wcs once a week on the pond and twice on my tank. However, I feel...uneasy if I don't have testing kits on hand. I guess I am still a newbie after almost three years, LOL!

No Nickie, it's certainly NOT silly but if you have a regular water changing schedule and your tests never reveal any problems then perhaps they might just be unnecessary. There are hundreds of "aquarists" on this side of the pond who are so keen on water testing that I think they spend more on test kits than they do on fish. Unlike you, many operate less than satisfactory water management schedules and don't change water until their test kits "tell them to". Now that really is silly!
John

[bigbettadan]

Change change change that water!!

Dan

[SeaWitch]

No Nickie, it's certainly NOT silly but if you have a regular water changing schedule and your tests never reveal any problems then perhaps they might just be unnecessary. There are hundreds of "aquarists" on this side of the pond who are so keen on water testing that I think they spend more on test kits than they do on fish. Unlike you, many operate less than satisfactory water management schedules and don't change water until their test kits "tell them to". Now that really is silly!
John

What you are saying makes perfect sense to me, John. I use my kits alot when I am cycling a new tank, but after I am sure the cycle is complete, I usually only test about once every two weeks and nothing is ever wrong. However, I always worry if I don't have a test kit on hand. LOL!

[Brian Young]

You guys are very lucky with zero Nitrates in your tap water. 100% water changes do not help too much in Hampshire, UK where I have to solve the problem of domestic water having 25 ppm Nitrate. Are there other methods possible to reduce Nitrates in my "fresh water"?

[small_ranchu]

You might want to try this Algae Scrubber method

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3


Here is the forum for algae scrubber...

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/

[johnatoranchu]

You guys are very lucky with zero Nitrates in your tap water. 100% water changes do not help too much in Hampshire, UK where I have to solve the problem of domestic water having 25 ppm Nitrate. Are there other methods possible to reduce Nitrates in my "fresh water"?

Brian don't worry about nitrate levels, goldfish are very nitrate tolerant and with regular water changes nitrate should not cause any problems. 25ppm is no problem, perhaps if it was 10 times that then it might be time to start worrying. In all the years I have been seriously involved with goldfish I can only recall one incident when nitrate poisoning was responsible for goldfish deaths which was in 1992. We had enjoyed a very hot, dry summer and a day or two after local farmers had fertilised their fields there was a huge downpour which lasted for several hours. The run-off killed carp in lakes and got into the mains water. A friend who lived in the centre of the problem area (Essex/Suffolk borders) carried out his normal water changing regime during this period lost all his fish with the cause being officially confirmed as nitrate poisoning. I cannot honestly remember the ppm but I am certain it was way in excess of 200ppm

John

[kendal]

another idea i posted here;

http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4024&highlight=mangrove

take a look at the charts i posted—=they are nitrate eating machines.

mangroves can be planted in crushed coral in pots or better, box filters and placed in the tubs and moved at any time. to clean the mangrove substrate just lift the pot and rinse it out under the tap.

as long as you keep them warmer than 45F, wet and don't disturb the roots too much they are pretty hardy—you don't need to move them during a salt treatment like you might other plants either. they are trees but very slow growers and can be pruned and kept bonsai style.

if you can get them, i would recommend giving it a shot and posting your results.

i got mine here: http://myworld.ebay.com/bamboo-dynasty/?_trksid=p4340.l2559

don't know about international shipping.

[Brian Young]

Thanks for the quick and interesting response. There is no natural light in my small fish house so do you think mangroves will be okay under fluorescent tubes? Certainly the answer to my problem appears to be to use vegetation.

[Cincy Ranchu]

It is concievable that you could age water in an anaerobic condition and denitrify ( organisnms convert to nitrogen gas and then aerate in a second tank and filter. This seems like a lot of effort, do people drink this water ? It is way over the US drinking water standards.

[Brian Young]

It is concievable that you could age water in an anaerobic condition and denitrify ( organisnms convert to nitrogen gas and then aerate in a second tank and filter. This seems like a lot of effort, do people drink this water ? It is way over the US drinking water standards.
I don't drink it without using a simple domestic filter. These are becoming popular in many UK homes. My personal experience in the US has been surprise at the very high amount of chlorine in drinking water supplied to hotel rooms. Does this present a problem for fish keepers if domestic supplies have such high levels or do the normal aquatic chemical de-chlorinators work as over here? My biological filters appear to be working OK with immeasurable amounts of Ammonia and Nitrite. I am not sure I would have space to introduce other tanks , etc. in my fish house, although an external tank in the garden is a possibility.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Chlorine in the US and Chloramines varies wildly from city to city. A low has to do with how old the the city is and its' associated piping.
Mosy of us use a dechlorinator when changing large amounts of water. But many of us us no dechlor at all with changes less than 50%.

Not sure about your water filter, but does it remove nitrates or just chlorine?

[bekko]

Those point-of-use filters containing activated carbon will remove both nitrate and chlorine.

-steve

[johnatoranchu]

Those point-of-use filters containing activated carbon will remove both nitrate and chlorine.

-steve

Sorry Steve but healthy activated carbon filters DO NOT remove nitrate (or nitrite or ammonia) but they do remove chloramines as long as the water is in contact with the carbon for a while - half a gallon per minute is the normally recommended flow rate. If however the carbon is not changed sufficiently regularly then arguably bacteria could colonise the filter and "start" the nitrogen cycle. This could then convert ammonia to nitrite and the nitrite to nitrate in the normal way but the nitrate would only be removed if the filter was left to "go bad", that is to be colonised with anaerobic bacteria. Those bacteria would then consume the nitrate but at the expense of nil or very low levels of oxygen.
John

[bekko]

Hi John. Don't you guys have google over there :>)

Activated carbon will remove ammonia and nitrate directly.
http://worldfishcenter.org/Naga/Naga24-1&2/pdf/aquabyte%204.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304389404002055

This is not to say that activated carbon is the least expensive or most efficient way to remove ammonia or nitrate.

Personally, I would not bother to use activated carbon to remove anything from the fish tank/pond itself. There are so many large organic molecules floating around that the attachment sites on the carbon are used up very quickly. Good activated carbon is not cheap and you would go through a lot of it. Those little filter pads containing activated carbon which are put in hang-on-back tank filters are a joke.

However, carbon is useful to treating tap (mains) water for chloramines, chlorine, ammonia, nitrate and other undesirables. Since there is little or no organic matter in tap/mains water, the activated carboin remains activated long enough to be useful. The point-of-use filters I was referring to attach to the spigot on your sink or the plumbing under the sink.

The other problem with activated carbon is that it is difficult to know when the attachment sites are depleted. Trying to measure whether chlorine is passing through the filter is difficult and risky because by the time you can get a reading on most chlorine test kits the chlorine is already too high to use with fish. The safe bet is to run two filters in series. Put the older of the two filters first in line and put a newer filter (or newer activated carbon media) behind it to provide a safeguard. When you suspect the activated carbon in the first filter may be depleted, do a chlorine test on water which is past the first filter but not yet reached the second filter.

-steve