The Case of the Disappearing Wen

[fishteer]

I have two lovely (about 2 inches long) young lionheads. They are Tung Hoi (China) imports which I purchased two months ago at a very good Minneapolis LFS. I am training these fish to be actors (via video) in a puppet show: http://www.freshwaterpearlspuppetry.com/bubbleblog/ . They are fed directly from a feeding wand; I thus control exactly how much they eat. (They live in separate tanks.)

My problem: though they both had nice wens when I got them, the smaller of the two (April Apricot) has mysteriously been losing her wen. It is pretty much completely gone now. She had a mild fluke infection recently, which has cleared up with Prazi. Other than that, she appears pretty healthy.

I think perhaps I have not been feeding enough. A week ago I began feeding twice a day instead of once a day, and I have upped the protein content of the food. I now feed one meal of Mazuri color-enhancing gel (55% protein) or homemade bloodworm-vegetable gel (48% protein) in the morning, and a snack of frozen bloodworms, frozen brine shrimp, or peas in the late afternoon. I am thinking of adding Hikari Lionhead to my lionheads' diet.

Is there anything else I should do to help April regrow her wen? If the diet I'm currently feeding will accomplish that, any idea how long it will take to see improvement?

Thanks!

Regards,
Diane

[suphi]

If you want optimal development, make sure they get enough to eat.

Gel food may be too light as staple diet if the fish are skinny, bulk them up with pellets instead. To give you an idea my 8-month old ranchus (5 inches) each consumes about 15-20 saki hikari pellets per feed plus blood worms, 2-3x/day. Ideally, if you have a lot of free time, the fish can be fed all day long...a little bit at a time. If you want to stimulate more wen growth feed a ton of blood worms several times a day. Heavy feeding like this requires frequent water change to maintain good water quality, but if you want good results this is what you have to do.

I don't know how old your fish are but they're probably underdeveloped if they remain at 2 inches after 2 months with you. That means you should probably feed more.

Wen growth also has a lot to do with genetic makeup (i.e. predetermined), if the fish come from parents without a lot of wen then there's usually not much you can do about it.

[fishteer]

Thanks, Suphi. This is very helpful!

[suphi]

You're welcome. I tend to underfeed my fish (as well as myself) and always have to force myself to feed more. One big obstacle is that some of my SVRs have SBD and cannot take heavy feeding else they'd float, so I have to feed them separately. Using soaked and fully expanded pellets can help alleviate but not eliminate the SBD problem, and I do this even with my TVRs...just in case.

[fishteer]

I've also lost some fish to SBD. I've been told feed rice to prevent that, but I can't quite picture how much or how often.

BTW, I measured my lionheads, and they're a little bigger than I estimated. Nose to tail, April is 3-1/4 inches, and Clemmie is 3-3/4. But there's no doubt that April's once-decent wen is just gone. (Though Clemmie's is still there. Weird.)

[fishteer]

Oh, how I hate this part of fishkeeping.

I'm sorry to say that I lost April this afternoon. I'm really not sure what caused her death. I did a necropsy and didn't find anything unusual. It might possibly have mycobacterium marinum; that would explain her weight loss. I lost one fish to that a year or so ago.

[fish don't sweat]

If you want optimal development, make sure they get enough to eat.

Enought to eat, and good quality food. Nothing beats real meat.

[fish don't sweat]

Oh, how I hate this part of fishkeeping.

It's not a part of fish keeping any more than it's a part of dog keeping. Don't look after your livestock and you will have deadstock.

[WakinAZ]

It's not a part of fish keeping any more than it's a part of dog keeping. Don't look after your livestock and you will have deadstock.

Hmm, that's a bit harsh. All fish (and dogs and everything else) die eventually. The OP seems to be genuinely interested in the welfare of her fish, just like the rest of us.

[suphi]

Sorry for your loss. When I see unexplained wt loss, the first thing that comes to my mind is internal parasite (especially worms)...common things being common.

Perhaps the disappearing wen is a sign of chronic illness in your deceased fish, I would keep an eye on the tank mate.

[fishteer]

Too bad one flame was posted here amidst the helpful comments.

Just so you all know, I cannot imagine anyone taking more care with their fish than I do. I have researched every aspect of their care. When they are ill I spare no expense, including home visits from a veterinarian specializing in fish medicine. I have spent hundreds of dollars to try to help a single ill fish. I myself have most of a PhD. in veterinary physiology as well as an M.S. in wildlife science, so I delve into detail when my fish have health issues. I regularly examine fecal and slime samples under my microscope, so I catch problems as early as possible. I have invested thousands of dollars in the best possible equipment from canisters to UV sterilizers to an RO unit. I spend hours weekly making water that is ideal for goldfish: RO filtering our well water to remove excessive carbonate levels, then adding back minerals in healthy proportions. I use precision meters to test TDS, pH, and actual calcium and magnesium levels, as well as chemical nitrite, ammonia, and nitrate chemical tests. I do a thorough tank cleaning and water change once a week. I feed superior brands of food supplemented by fresh vegetables and homemade gel food.

And I give my fish an interesting life with interactive toys and education that allows them to use their brains. This is called "enrichment," and every zookeeper (which, BTW is a job I have held) knows that it makes captive animals healthier and happier.

So now that it's clear that I am not a neophyte or slacker, perhaps we can put aside baseless judgmentalism and get back to having a productive discussion.

[fishteer]

My remaining lionhead, Clem, seems to be doing just fine. He was April's tankmate at the LFS, but I bought her a month after I brought Clemmie home. He's been in a separate tank here and hasn't shown any evidence of April's problem. His fecal samples have all been good. Hopefully he will avoid April's fate!

[johnatoranchu]

Too bad one flame was posted here amidst the helpful comments.

Just so you all know, I cannot imagine anyone taking more care with their fish than I do. I have researched every aspect of their care. When they are ill I spare no expense, including home visits from a veterinarian specializing in fish medicine. I have spent hundreds of dollars to try to help a single ill fish. I myself have most of a PhD. in veterinary physiology as well as an M.S. in wildlife science, so I delve into detail when my fish have health issues. I regularly examine fecal and slime samples under my microscope, so I catch problems as early as possible. I have invested thousands of dollars in the best possible equipment from canisters to UV sterilizers to an RO unit. I spend hours weekly making water that is ideal for goldfish: RO filtering our well water to remove excessive carbonate levels, then adding back minerals in healthy proportions. I use precision meters to test TDS, pH, and actual calcium and magnesium levels, as well as chemical nitrite, ammonia, and nitrate chemical tests. I do a thorough tank cleaning and water change once a week. I feed superior brands of food supplemented by fresh vegetables and homemade gel food.

And I give my fish an interesting life with interactive toys and education that allows them to use their brains. This is called "enrichment," and every zookeeper (which, BTW is a job I have held) knows that it makes captive animals healthier and happier.

So now that it's clear that I am not a neophyte or slacker, perhaps we can put aside baseless judgmentalism and get back to having a productive discussion.

All this is totally unnecessary to keep goldfish healthy. All they need is quality wholesome food and water. You don't have to make the water - if you can drink it, goldfish will almost certainly be happy to live in it. I am not familiar with your well water and you might like to check its chemical composition as you seem to enjoy that part of fishkeeping. The best way however is to buy a couple of healthy feeder fish and put them in water direct from the fawcett. If they die then perhaps your overly scientific approach is justified. If they live then think how much time, trouble and expense you will have been spared!
You don't have to make their food either; feed small sinking pellets (Saki Hikari is excellent and has already been mentioned) and frozen bloodworm will provide them with all the nutrition they need. Feed around 4% of the fish's body weight each day spread over as many feeds as you can manage.
If you're undertaking 100% water changes each week then ammonia/nitrite/nitrate should not be a problem, but perhaps 3 100% water changes every 2 weeks is better. Clean the bottom and front of the tank but the fish will be happier if you let some algael growth develop on the back and sides. Given your stated background I am a little surprised that you housed your fish seperately. Goldfish are shoaling fish and would be much happier with companionship and any form of training (as it is with any animal) is perhaps best left until such time as the subject is both feeding and growing normally.
I have kept fish with hood growth (Ranchu and Orandas) for many years and very occasionally a fish (always an Oranda in my case) has started to shed its hood. Such fish have always died soon after and have always been imported fish which I had had for less than 6 months. It has been suggested to me that the fish could have been "badly bruised" in transit and it takes a while for "exterior" damage to show (in our cases the hood) but the "internal" damage doesn't show, the fish just dies!
John
John

[Mikey V]

Too bad one flame was posted here amidst the helpful comments.

When they are ill I spare no expense, including home visits from a veterinarian specializing in fish medicine. I have spent hundreds of dollars to try to help a single ill fish. I myself have most of a PhD. in veterinary physiology as well as an M.S. in wildlife science, so I delve into detail when my fish have health issues. I regularly examine fecal and slime samples under my microscope, so I catch problems as early as possible. I have invested thousands of dollars in the best possible equipment from canisters to UV sterilizers to an RO unit. I spend hours weekly making water that is ideal for goldfish: RO filtering our well water to remove excessive carbonate levels, then adding back minerals in healthy proportions. I use precision meters to test TDS, pH, and actual calcium and magnesium levels, as well as chemical nitrite, ammonia, and nitrate chemical tests. I do a thorough tank cleaning and water change once a week. I feed superior brands of food supplemented by fresh vegetables and homemade gel food.



I hear you can get these procedures covered by the new Obama healthcare plan...as long as your goldfish aren't illegal immigrants!

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist :angel:

[fishteer]

Well, I must say I am disappointed in the hostile tone of some of these posts. I expected fellow fish lovers to be more hospitable. I will present a few more thoughts, and then I'm done here.

1) I have kept goldfish in groups and I have kept them singly, and there has been no difference in their behavior. My solitary goldfish are not skittish, nor are they lethargic, nor are they less healthy. I have had healthy grouped and solitary goldfish, and I have had unhealthy grouped and solitary goldfish.

2) I have been training animals for a long time, and I have studied animal behavior for quite a long time. Training does not stress or harm fish or any other animal, if properly done. The animal itself determines the pace and timing of training. No animal is rushed or coerced. Operant conditioning is a reward-based, positive reinforcement method. It is entirely voluntary on the part of the animal. He/she can choose not to participate at any time. Thus far, I have not encountered a fish that didn't choose to participate. I do not have my fish fitted with little choke collars!

I do not push any fish into training before he/she is accustomed to his/her tank. I do not push a fish into training before he/she is eating normally. I do not push unhealthy fish into training. To suggest that I would do so is, again, baseless and a bit insulting. If you are not familiar with the details of positive reinforcement training, I don't think you can draw conclusions about its methods or result.

3) When I first started, I was given advice pretty much identical to "if you can drink it, goldfish will almost certainly be happy to live in it." That is where all my fish's problems began. Freshwater fish need calcium and magnesium to osmoregulate across their skin. With an improper balance of ions in the water, fish can bloat or, conversely, dehydrate. My well water has so much carbonate that calcium precipitates out of the water in huge quantities, resulting in a calcium deficit. Goldfish will precipitate calcium carbonate in their intestines and excrete it in long slime strings if total dissolved solids in their water are too high, or if calcium and magnesium are out of balance. (It is not true that excreting slime always indicates a bacterial infection, but excreting carbonate in this manner can irritate the GI tract and lead to infection.) Conversely, the softened water which my family drinks has no calcium or magnesium -- only a very high carbonate level. So neither my drinkable well water nor my drinkable softened is water healthy for goldfish.

4) Giving or receiving fishkeeping advice online is a little bit problematic, since it is difficult or impossible to convey every pertinent moment of history (beginning with the mostly unknowable practices of the Asian breeder), every nuance of chemistry, every instance of medical intervention and the biology behind it, and every other factor that affects a reported problem.

But we share our fishkeeping problems in the hope that the one thing we may have overlooked might be perceived by someone with a helpful answer. So we take the plunge, and appeal to others. It should be taken for granted that we all care about our fish and want to do what's best. Given that, infusing one's replies with an accusatory tone is not only rude, it's a little bit mean. Our posts should convey respect and sympathy as well as information.

If we can't do that, we have no community at all.

[bigbettadan]

Well, all I know is the best ranchus are in the world are bred in Japan with nothing but mother nature and hard work. And that seems to work for me too. I have followed their basic rules of heavy water changes, good food, not much medication beyond salt, and lots of sunshine when possible. And I am very pleased with the results. In my years showing bettas, I had fellow breeders that where practically chemists yet I beat them in the shows consistantly with just simple methodogy and hard work.


Dan