Yellow wakin

[mikeno]

Another lucky catch! A yellow wakin was found among a bunch of common yellow goldfishes at a LFS. I guess the tail spread could have been better…

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt304/mikenophotos/gulwakin.png

[bwleung]

Hi Mikael,

Every Congrats!

Real unique, being a yellow metallic and a wakin as well!

Lucky you!

Make sure you preserve this unique combo of genetic traits!

Best regards,

Bill

[mikeno]

Hi Bill and thanks!

Yes I will preserve this combo, I really like it more and more! A bit skinny though I will try to bulk it up.

Right now I’m trying to decide if I will use my red/white wakins or my yellow common to breed him/her. I guess the wakins will improve the tail/body and the yellow will keep the yellow color. Either way I will backcross the f1:s with the yellow wakin parent to retrieve yellow color (wakin cross) or double tail (yellow common cross). Any ideas?

If the yellow wakin turns out to be a female I think I will use my yellow common male as partner since he show a good fukurin area.

As said in my blog I may add albino to the line if I can find some albinos…

By the way, my computer has shut down and I cannot read my e-mails at the moment.

[bekko]

Good catch Mikeno!

I have several batches of fry from a metallic lemon comet female crossed to a white wakin and a red/white wakin. In the first cull of the first batch I found about 15% with respectable wakin tails and double anal fins. However, they are only about a month old and have not shown any color yet. Waiting with abated breath.

-steve

[bwleung]

Hi Bill and thanks!


Right now I’m trying to decide if I will use my red/white wakins or my yellow common to breed him/her. I guess the wakins will improve the tail/body and the yellow will keep the yellow color. Either way I will backcross the f1:s with the yellow wakin parent to retrieve yellow color (wakin cross) or double tail (yellow common cross). Any ideas?

If the yellow wakin turns out to be a female I think I will use my yellow common male as partner since he show a good fukurin area.

.

Hi Mikael,

If I were you, I'll stay with the yellow line, ie, breed this yellow wakin with your yelllow commons, rather than your red and white wakins. My thoughts and reasons are:

Yellow in goldfish means it is devoid of black and red pigment cells, ie, leaving yellow on its own. If red pigment cells are present, your fish will be orange instead, which is the most common goldfish colour for metallics.

Maintain the yellow is not easy once your outcross, I personally feel it will be harder than obtaining doubletails on ratios, especially from F2 generations.

That is, even if the F1 are mainly singletails with few doubletails (when you breed it with your yellow commons) and they are not showy wakin standards, they are at least yellow doubtails. Beeding these yellow babies back to the parent yellow wakin will produce around 1/16 to 1/4 doubtails in the F2 (depending on how many doubletail genes your baby F1 possessed).

On the otherhand, outcrossing your yellow wakin to red and white wakins will of course provide better body shape wakins with doubletails, but they are very unlikely to be yellow. Ask yourself, of your red and white wakins babies bred from your red and white wakins to date, are there any of them yellow in colour?

Technically, there is a chance for goldfish to be yellow from a line of non-yellow breeds. However, they are few and far between. Normal metallic goldfish exhibit the tendency to carry both red and yellow pigment cells, thus the most common colour being orange or red and white (white being destruction of black, red and yellow cells). It will be rare for a linebred red and white goldfish breed to destruct to throw out a yellow in the breed. A self-colour orange will be much more likely instead. Crossing a yellow wakin with your red and white will increase your yellow chances, but I feel that chance is not a lot, and is far less than maintaining your doubletails with common yellows in the yellow wakin as my preferred option, if you get what I mean.

Besides, yellow metallics of the type in Sweden are what I called genuine yellow (sunbursts), and not the 'quasi-yellow' claimed to be yellow in some other countries, ie, there are a few yellow shades out there. It is a great yellow line you have in Sweden.

Therefore, if room, time and money are constraints in your equation, stick with the yellow colour, inbred the babies back to the yellow double-tail wakin, maintain that line for a few generations until the yellow doubletail line is established to a high % (ie, high % of doubletail and yellow in colour), before attemtping any outcross if it is still something you want to consider later on.

Unless you are breeding it for show, most people do not have such discerning eyes to have such high standard about what is a good wakin or not. But they will appreciate a yellow doubtltail wakin, just as you showed us in this photo of your fish. People should pay a good price for it elsewhere in the world, even if not in Sweden. People should be snapping up your yellow wakins quick and fast!

PS: By the way, maintain your hammerscales, UK and US tried bigtime in the 1970s to outcross and establish a line of singletail hammerscales, and I beleive they lost that line if they got there, as it disappeared being mentioned from their literatures after 1970s.

Hope that helps.

Best,

Bill

[bwleung]

Hi Bill and thanks!


Right now I’m trying to decide if I will use my red/white wakins or my yellow common to breed him/her. I guess the wakins will improve the tail/body and the yellow will keep the yellow color. Either way I will backcross the f1:s with the yellow wakin parent to retrieve yellow color (wakin cross) or double tail (yellow common cross). Any ideas?

If the yellow wakin turns out to be a female I think I will use my yellow common male as partner since he show a good fukurin area.

.

Hi Mikael,

If I were you, I'll stay with the yellow line, ie, breed this yellow wakin with your yelllow commons, rather than your red and white wakins. My thoughts and reasons are:

Yellow in goldfish means it is devoid of black and red pigment cells, ie, leaving yellow on its own. If red pigment cells are present, your fish will be orange instead, which is the most common goldfish colour.

Maintain the yellow is not easy once your outcross, I personally feel it will be harder than obtaining doubletails on ratios, especially from F2 generations.

That is, even if the F1 are mainly singletails with few doubletails (when you breed it with your yellow commons) and they are not showy wakin standards. They are at least yellow doubtails. Beeding these yellow babies back to the parent yellow wakin will produce around 1/16 to 1/4 doubtails in the F2 (depending on how many doubletail genes your baby F1 possessed).

On the otherhand, outcrossing your yellow wakin to red and white wakins will of course provide better body shape wakins with doubletails, but they are very unlikely to be yellow. Ask yourself, of your wakins babies bred to date, are there any of them yellow in colour?

Technically, there is a chance for goldfish to be yellow from a line of non-yellow breeds. However, they are few and far between. Normal metallic goldfish exhibit the tendency to carry both red and yellow pigment cells, thus the most common colour being orange or red and white (white being destruction of black, red and yellow cells). It will be rare for a linebred red and white goldfish breed to destruct to throw out a yellow in the breed. A self-colour orange will be much more likely instead. Crossing a yellow wakin with your red and white will increase your yellow chances, but I feel that chance is not a lot, and is far less than maintaining your doubletails with common yellows in the yellow wakin as my preferred option, if you get what I mean.

Besides, yellow metallics of the type in Sweden are what I called genuine yellow (sunbursts), and not the 'quasi-yellow' claimed to be yellow in some other countries, ie, there are a few yellow shades out there. It is a great yellow line you have in Sweden.

Therefore, if room, time and money are constraints in your equation, stick with the yellow colour, inbred the babies back to the yellow double-tail wakin, maintain that line for a few generations until the yellow doubletail line is established to a high % (ie, high % of doubletail and yellow in colour), before attemtping any outcross if it is still something you want to consider later on.

Unless you are breeding it for show, most people do not have such discerning eyes to have such high standard about what is a good wakin or not. But they will appreciate a yellow doubtltail wakin, just as you showed us in this photo of your fish. People should pay a good price for it elsewhere in the world, even if not in Sweden. People should be snapping up your yellow wakins quick and fast!

PS: By the way, maintain your hammerscales, UK and US tried bigtime in the 1970s to outcross and establish a line of singletail hammerscales, and I beleive they lost that line if they got there, as it disappeared being mentioned from their literatures after 1970s.

Hope that helps.

Best,

Bill

[mikeno]

Ok, thanks Bill! I think I will keep this wakin line a clean yellow line then, but there are some options. The yellow commons sold here in Stockholm has become a goldmine for me and I can use yellow metallic, yellow hammerscaled metallic, yellow mock metallic or yellow and white metallic commons from the same breeder as the yellow wakin to start this line.

The hammerscales is already on their way to become chocolate h-scales because I think it will become a cooler combination. I did bred the yellow hammerscales and they bred true for scales and color. The breeding pair is sold but I have some youngsters left just to be on the safe side.

A mock metallic line may look too much like my sunspot (yellow calico) line but it can be a good choice.

I think the yellow and white metallic will be my choice. A yellow/white metallic wakin line would most certainly give a good percentage all yellows besides all the yellow/whites.

Bekko – I did a similar cross: calico ryukin x yellow common. I’ve got no double tails out of 200 fries. I culled for good blue/black pigmentation and among the remaining 20 there are non that I can call yellow. All of them are some kind of washed out orange, although some with a yellow glow. See Sunspot picture at my blog. Hopefully there will be some yellows in the next generation, and hopefully the blue/black pigment will be there to. In my dreams there is a doubletail on the same fish…

[bekko]

So, the likelihood of yellow wakin from the lemon comet x white wakin cross sounds pretty slim. Too bad. I would have settled for one or two.

For what it's worth Mikael, in a batch of about 150 fry from a lemon comet x lemon comet I see one double tail. Not a good double tail, but double nonetheless. Too early to tell what color it will be. These pop up in red/white commons too and it always seems strange that a more advanced characteristic would continue to reappear over generations as a throw-back.

-steve

[mikeno]

The lemon comet x lemon comet double tail could be a very good back cross for your lemon comet x white wakin cross frys. It would increase the numbers of doubletails and yellows. Still you have some good body, shortfin and wakintail influence from the white wakin. Perhaps too many longfinned…

[bekko]

The plot thickens Mikael.

I picked through another group of lemon comet x lemon comet. They are from the same bucks but it might have been a different female. More than one-in-eight (closer to 1-in-7) have double tails. Again, none are good wakin tails. I do not think this can be a throw-back to some distant ancestor and suspect the adults had a double-tail parent or grandparent. Moreover, many have a familiar foreshortened head and a few have short deep bodies.

The adults are from China and appear to be two years old. My guess is that the Chinese are going to introduce a yellow and white oranda in 2010 or 2011.

-steve

[mikeno]

Sounds very promising! Even if they do not have the perfect wakintail yet you may have some decent wakins in 2010 or 2011!

I’ve decided to use my mock metallic yellow commons to develop my yellow wakin line. They already have a deep yellow color and the mock metallic feature will add even more depth and a tinge of pink. Hopefully someone of the mocks has a matching gender to the doubletail.