Blue phoenix breeding [Archive] - Site for Goldfish Keepers

bwleung

08-19-2009, 01:00 AM

Hi Afertuna,

If you can’t find another phoenix, use the blue ranchu is preferred than the calico ranchu to keep the line afloat.

The reasons are:
Both the blue ranchu and blue phoenix are blue metallics, therefore they are both simple recessives to the blue colour. Crossing each other will result in 100% metallic blue frys at birth. However, if either phoenix or ranchu line is impure as to the blue recessive character. That is if either of the line has a tendency to depigment, then some of your blue frys may decolour to yellowish white, some may end up being white bellies with blue backs where there is incomplete depigmentation.

As much as the fins will be shortened in such outcross, however, fin length is an incomplete dominance character, ie, short fin in the ranchu will not dominate completely. There will be some frys out of this cross which will still have reasonable length fins which can be crossed back with their parent phoenix.

The other cross with calico eggfish will result in 50% wild bronze brown grey metallics and no blue (and if they depigment, will turn orange). The other 50% will be nacreous calico. They may not be pretty calico either as they may lose the black speckles characteristic of the calico form and depigment gene from the blue metallic may also act on and ‘washout’ their calico colours. Again the fins will be shortened. Breeding the brown babies when they have matured with the parent phoenix will result in only 50% blue frys only.

On the other hand, if you breeding these wild bronze grey metallic babies with each other, only 25% (one quarter) will be blue metallics.

So, you are better off with the blue ranchu if you have to outcross the phoenix. It's not the end of the world, you can get your phoenix back with blue ranchu very soon.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards

Bill

bekko

08-19-2009, 06:10 AM

There was a blue phoenix at the MPKS show in early July. Fred posted a photo of it here on or about July 10th. Either the same fish or a similar fish was at another show this summer but I can't remember where. Fred may know who the owner is and you might try contacting them about sources. A lot easier than starting from scratch.

-steve

small_ranchu

08-19-2009, 11:44 AM

I believe it belongs to Carol.

bigbettadan

08-19-2009, 04:38 PM

Yea, but I think it is her only one..... :(

Dan

bekko

08-19-2009, 08:17 PM

If it's her only one then it must be available for import.

-steve

bigbettadan

08-19-2009, 08:25 PM

There were a breeding group of 6 shipped in to the last social, but I don't remember who took them home off the top of my head......

Dan

afertuna

08-19-2009, 08:36 PM

I would love a few more of them really bad.... Until I getsome more I will put some blue ranchu in with them. Which I geuss will be good in the long run the ranchu werent good as ranchu. but will be good for this project.

afertuna

08-19-2009, 08:37 PM

I geuss I will have to see about importing some then... I need to sell some fish I have and raise the money!!!! or take a second mortgage lol

Ichthius

08-19-2009, 09:20 PM

afnaveils

08-21-2009, 02:04 AM

I bred one small spawn of these blue egg phoenixes this year. I still have about 18 of these fry along with 9 medium to adult fish. The fry are of average quality. I may bring a few to Cincinnati if I can attend the BS.

I also heard that Russ Taylor had 3 spawns of BEP but was able to keep only one batch. You may check with him.

Gerard

afnaveils

08-22-2009, 02:53 AM

There were a breeding group of 6 shipped in to the last social, but I don't remember who took them home off the top of my head......

Dan

Hi Dan,

Do you know who sent the 6 BEPs?

Ichthius

08-22-2009, 06:10 PM

Russ sent them.

Daryl

08-25-2009, 01:00 AM

I got three from Peter Ponzio about 3 years ago. One never really did anything - it was very poor physically, but two bred nicely ONCE. They produced about 1000 fry - many of which were passed out at the MWPK show in Illinois in 2008. I have one of the older blue Phoenix left.... and 3 fry - all of which are GREEN - I have lost the blue.

I would be happy to pass them to someone who wanted to work with them - if perhaps, sometime in the future, I might have a breeding set back. I do so love the finnage.

I was hospitalized last winter for an emergency - and I lost a LOT of fish during that time - decimating my breeding lines. The Phoenix have all but vanished for me, too.

That blue at the show was not mine - but was ALSO one of Peter P's fry from 3 years ago..... He would know who had it. I cannot come up with the name.

bwleung

08-25-2009, 01:26 AM

Hi Daryl,

For your green phoenix frys, although green, they are still presumably pure phoenix heritage.

If your older phoenix is still breedable, crossing these green frys with it should produce 50% blue.

If the older phoenix is too old, then breeding these green frys with each other should produce ¼ blue frys, on the basis they carry a recessive blue gene and a dominant green gene each, thus they appear green themselves, but are carriers for the blue genes.

As to why they are green phoenix, that means the line of blue phoenix you have is not a pure line of blue in the parental stock.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards

Bill

Daryl

08-25-2009, 06:15 PM

Thanks! Maybe I will give that a try. I am also looking for some of the fry I gave away a few years back. There are at least 6 of them in a friend's pond - and one is supposedly a nice blue. Perhaps I can ressurect the line again! :)

Ichthius

08-25-2009, 06:25 PM

Hopefully there are enough of us with a few fish to keep them going.

I just hope I have a pair.

<}}}><

afertuna

08-25-2009, 07:50 PM

It just seems that they are slowly disappearing. There seems to be alot of fertility issues with them. I talked to russ recently and he said that really out of three spawnings he got nothing one was a textbook spawn 1000's of eggs all infertile. This is making me wonder what steps we need to take to keep them going

harzan

08-26-2009, 01:09 AM

I would like to try them here in Hawaii if anyone has any to trade.

My experience is limited to the recent blues available. I did bring in some Shukin blues from Japan, but were females (only a few survived. I crossed shukin to a blue ranchu from China (from Tommy) male with slight bronze tinge to it. All fry are now green (one is actually blue...but a runt) with long tails.

I did another cross with this same to a blue Japanese Ranchu female in effort to hold the blue better....all are green, a few are turning orange.

The third cross was to a blue calico ranchu (dark) and had a fair mix of calico, blues, and greens. The calicoes have a lot less orange in them so far and blue seems to be coming in slowly. I have them in small 50 gal tubs, so they are not growing the best.

http://www.goldfishkeepers.com/forum/album.php?albumid=19&pictureid=424

I did not know this blue business was so difficult.

bwleung

08-26-2009, 08:57 AM

Hi Harzan,

The ‘blue’ in blue phoenix is not the same blue as in the blue ranchu (Tommy’s side) in the photo. It is the same blue as blue shukins from Japan.

In short, there are a few shades of blue.

My thoughts are:

The blue in Tommy’s China ranchu is the original blue metallics as was defined by SC Chen in 1930s. It is a dark blackish blue, your China ranchu is a great example. Most of us don’t see this as a nice blue metallic goldfish.

Instead we prefer the light bluish grey blue metallics as exhibited by the blue phoenix and the blue shukins.

The blue phoenix and blue shukins from Japan are light blue-grey type of blue. This is the ‘blue-brown’ goldfish as was referred to by SC Chen. That is, a cross of the chocolate brown goldfish with the Tommy blue type of blue metallic goldfish.

This blue-brown (to me more light bluish grey) is the product of a goldfish having recessive genes to all five pairs of recessive genes. That is, one pair of blue recessives and four pairs of brown recessives.

When you outcross blue shukins to Tommy’s China dark blue, you won’t be expected to get any blues. As these frys are not expected to be homozygous to all five different pairs of recessive genes (ie, 1 blue pair & 4 brown pairs). Therefore, they are wild olive green.

You need to cross these frys back with your blue shukin female parent to maximise the blue in the F2 second generation. You should get some blue back. If you can’t, then cross these frys to each other, and you should also get some blue back, but the % will not be as great as crossing back with the blue shukin parent.

These green frys are carriers of recessive genes, so they are not useless, in fact, they are carrying the blue factor, and you just need time and patience to get your blue back by inbreeding them. You know whether they are blue or not, as they are born blue when they are blue metallics. They don’t depigment from green to blue in metallics for the blue colour.

In Australia, there are two types of blues, both are natural mutations in Australia.

One line I am working on is a blue common/comet at the moment, but I may shelf my plans as I am prioritising in preserving my leather goldfish, as they are not seen anymore again since I saw 10 and purchased them recently.

This blue common/comet is a natural mutation and is not the dark blue as the China blue, nor the light greyish blue (blue-brown) like the shukin/phoenix, but it is a more greyish silvery blue. At the right angle when light strikes upon it, the blue is quite appealing. The whole fish is this one colour with no brown/bronze patches anywhere (including the head), so they are unlikely to be products of crossing brown and blue goldfish. Besides, no such brown or dark blue singletail common/comets exist in Australia to cross with to produce this blue metallic mutation.

The other type of blue is a blue fantail I have which is a light silvery blue (lighter blue than the blue common/comet), with a brown patch in the head. This blue is more akin to a cross of the blue and brown goldfish, but again, Australia has chocolate brown fantails, but no dark blue fantails (only the lighter violet blue fantails from China) but this violet blue fantails has not been seen for over 10 years now in Australia, as most Australians don’t find metallic blue appealing here.

I'll take photos of them when the weather are warmer later, as it is winter here. Handling them too much guarantees flukes and death outdoors. I killed one of my four blue metallic comet this way. She was depigmenting to yellow white (white belly and blue backs), the other 3 common/comets I still got have not depigment to white, and I really hope they won't depigment at all.

Hope that helps in making blue metallics less difficult.

Kind regards

Bill

harzan

08-26-2009, 09:35 AM

Thanks Bill,

I would like to see more photos of differnt types of Blues. Please post them some time soon. I was wondering if I have better chances of getting blues that will stay blue by breeding to the reds out of the blues or blue crosses? I am assuming som of these greens will turn orange as several of my fry out of this male have turned orange (blue from Tommy X japan blues).

I actually like the dark blue, so I would not mind to try the cross you mentioned.

Blues are not popular in Hawaii either. I do not think I have breed them for 3 more years.

Thanks,

Harris

mikeno

08-26-2009, 09:48 AM

Are there any common used names for the different types of blue? Like:
Shub blue or Subblue for shubunkin blue.
Bluejay for the light blue
Old blue or chinablue for the dark blue

It would make things much clearer.

bwleung

08-26-2009, 10:39 AM

Hi Harris,

I actually have photos of the blue metallic comet that died by my overhandling (didn't help when I removed her & took photos of her), ie, the half depigmented one.

The photos were taken in May this year on a cloudy winter day, so weren't great at all and still learning (& did not know) how to take close up with my digital camera. So turns out more grey than blue as no sunlight, but she had great metallic ink blue when the sun shines at a certain angle.

As you can see, she has yellow white belly, she was depigmenting, and was the case when I first purchased her.

256

257

258

As for the blues (your cross of shukin with Japanese ranchu) that turned orange, I definitley avoid those, as they carry the depigment genes any blue babies from them will have the tendency to depigment like this one of mine.

PS: Hi Mikael, no universal/agreed terminology for the various blue shades in blue metallics. I still like the SC Chen description myself.

Kind regards,

Bill

harzan

08-26-2009, 07:25 PM

Actually Bill,

My red is out of the blue ranchuXblue ranchu...they were green and turned orange...dark. I only kept a couple in thought that if I did use them, the off spring may hold pigment better. I guess you are saying the opposite?

bwleung

08-27-2009, 12:45 AM

Hi Harris,

OK, I follow you.

Your deep orange ones are from the Tommy blackish blue ranchu and Japanese blue ranchu cross, and they are wild olive green which turned orange.

In this case, the cross is an outcross, as the blue from Tommy is a simple recessive, while I assume your Japanese blue ranchu is the non-blackish blue type, which is a combo of 5 recessive pairs including the 4 pairs from chocolate brown. In that case, they won’t breed true, ie, blue and instead throw out wild olive green frys. Those that depigment to orange later are because these frys also contained depigment genes (either from Tommy side or more likely from the Japanese blue ranchu side).

Yes, I would not use them, because blue metallics are born blue. Any depigmentation from blue will be the yellowish white, like mine in the photo, which is undesirable. You want to breed out the depigmentation character, so they stay blue throughout their lives, from the moment they are born. Using these orange ones, crossing with each other, they should throw out a small % of blue frys. The only problem is they may then depigment later, leaving you with ones like mine, half depigmented or complete depigmentation, being a total yellowish white fish.

Basically, darkish black blue metallics (Tommy’s side or Chinese blue) are just a simple pair of recessive character of the wild olive green goldfish. Unlike the wild goldfish, they have instead only the black pigment present but the yellow/red pigment missing. The blue reflecting tissue (guanine) lining the scale intact, so they are metallic scaled. Any depigmentation means the blue goes to yellowish white like my one (as they don’t have the yellow pigment). If they are olive green wild goldfish, which do have the yellow/red pigment, any depigmentation mean they go orange.

On the other hand, the Phoenix/Shukin blue, ie, light grey blue (or blue-brown metallics) is a recessive character of 5 gene pairs, one pair of blue and four pairs of brown. This type of blue metallics has few or no black pigments, the guanine blue reflecting tissue is much more developed than the wild ordinary goldfish, and the yellow pigments are also much more developed and distributes in large patches.

So for the two types of blues, although they are both blue, they blue for different structural (genetic) reasons. Thus any outcross between these two types of blue results in wild olive green goldfish.

I suspect the ‘Australian blue’ common/comet is a simple recessive, but I haven’t tested that out yet. But whatever they are, unlike the light blue phoenix, their guanine blue reflecting tissue is not much more developed than the ordinary goldfish, thus they are more greyish blue than the light blue of the phoenix.

However, they are also not likely to be a case of 5 homozygous recessive pairs as there are no brown patches in them at all, the whole fish is just the one greyish blue tone in the four specimens I have to date. They are not the Tommy blackish blue type either, as they definitely don’t have the dark blackish blue of this China type.

So yes, I will avoid your orange ones for breeding blue metallics.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Bill

bekko

08-27-2009, 07:11 AM

Bill,

Is this like the Australian blue common?

http://www.raingarden.us/blue%20hibuna.jpg

It is not mine.

-steve

bwleung

08-27-2009, 09:36 AM

Hi Steve,

No, the Australian blue common goldfish does not have the same uniform darkness and this purplish tint, it is more a silvery greyish blue. It is basically the 'blue' in my three photos of my depigmenting fish earlier, except my remaining three blue metallic commons extend to the whole fish and not just the back in my depigmented one.

When the light, whether sunlight or artifical light stikes upon it at the correct angle, it is distinctly deep inkly blue, like dark blue sky. The problem is it is very hard to capture that with a camera. But if you throw a olive wild green common fish next to it (which I have), the colour difference betwen them is easily discernable, ie, piece of cake to tell the difference.

I will take photos of them later on, but I am not touching them while it is winter here and they are outdoors. Any mucking around at this time of the year damaging their skin membranes guarantee flukes and death. I got 3 left of this Australian blue common and only 1 of the light blue fantail and I am not risking any of them until I find/breed more of them. They are more precious than my leather goldfish in a way as their numbers are so low.

That fish in that photo, which I have seen before, is a real oddity. I wonder if its true colour been distorted by aquarium light or it is one of those black common goldfish which are really some hybrid carps coming out of China... but it happened to look purplish blue under aquarium light in this photo.

Best,

Bill

mikeno

08-29-2009, 10:27 PM

That’s a real cool color. My guess it’s a black fish in the right (?) light. I did photograph my non telescopic moor and did get a similar effect. But the blue fish at the picture made me thinking.

Let’s say the color is in fact the actual color, what could it be? Of course it could be some kind of new unknown gene that does not want to find its way to Sweden. But more interesting, what would you get if you successfully combined the light blue (phoenix blue) and the black moor black? Even if the light blue color is an effect of diluted black pigment it should be able to darken. When/if the blues does go true depigmentation do they first become darker? With some moor influence it would be possible to make it stay dark blue.

Speculating about the blue color… Has anyone tried to add mock metallic to the light blues? My somewhat wishful guess is it may result in a “real lavender” nonmetallic fish. The mock effect should be adding some pink “color” making the fish slightly more purplish.

I may be of topic here…

afnaveils

08-31-2009, 03:17 AM

Gary took a trio and the others went to Ted in Canada. I think you've been in touch with Ted about importing them right?

I have two and they chase once in a while but they just seem to be happy hanging out.

Actually, Ted's cousin Billy has them in Ontario, Canada. No spawn yet according to Ted.

afnaveils

09-15-2009, 03:38 AM

Following the Breeders' Social, it is clear that the Blue Egg Phoenixes are in great danger of being extinct. So, if you have this variety, PLEASE try and breed them next season. We need to increase their numbers and SOON.

If you have these BEPs, please make yourself known.

Ichthius

09-15-2009, 03:45 AM

Hi Gerard

I have two males. I'm interested in keeping this lime goin.

I'm looking for more stock or will donate mine to a worthy cause.

I heard the fry are off to Hawaii, that's good news.

afnaveils

09-15-2009, 03:49 AM

Hi David,

Yes, I brought 9 BEP fry to the BS for Harzan. He will do a good job of raising them and breeding them; I saw his shukins and blues ranchus (very nice).

What happened to the ones Russ sent you?

Russ may need your males; his shot blanks.

Ichthius

09-15-2009, 11:54 PM

They dropped like flies... I found a couple flukes but none of the other fish in the tank even showed any symptoms and I prazied them right away. Allan lost all of his (the other half of the batch) at about the same time.

So not sure exactly what happened.

Glad to hear you had a spawn and that they are now in the tropics.

afnaveils

09-16-2009, 12:48 AM

Hi David,

I'm really sorry to hear that.

At the moment, I know of 6 hobbyists who have these BEPs: Russ Taylor, Bruce Cole, Harris Zane, Billy Tai, David Lains and myself.

Anyone else out there? We must not fail this one, please...

bwleung

09-16-2009, 05:13 AM

Hi,

Great to see you all trying to preserve this breed.

I am assuming you are all aware of the GSA's efforts in preserving this line:
http://www.goldfishsociety.org/blue_egg_phoenix.html

Try them to see who else is in this game, maybe the line is still going strong among them.

Their phoenix stock came from the Hong Kong Ocean Park's Goldfish centre aka ' Goldfish Pagoda', where their Phoenix line is still maintained to this day. They also very recently claim to have the largest black oranda in the world on exhibit, but the news report didn't state its size, but the photo showed a solid looking black goldfish, but without benchmark, just can't get a sense of its size and perspective from the shot.

As for blue phoenix, blue is a recessive in colouration (genetic basis). Borrowing from the cyprinus carpio (European carp) literature, what one finds is that the blue have a few different genetic strains, but most of them have lower growth rate and lower viability compared to the normal bronze fish. So, you are playing with a weaker bunch, that must be borne in mind.

As for males shooting blanks, best to have two males per female to avoid such precious eggs being wasted.

Kind regards,

Bill

afnaveils

09-18-2009, 04:38 AM

Thanks Bill! But our BEPs are in fact offsprings of a few generations down the BEPs from Hong Kong Ocean Park's Goldfish centre. That's what make the situation so alarming.

afnaveils

09-19-2009, 01:54 AM

I just remembered, a few years ago, a certain Tom L. La Bron had BEPs too. Anyone here knows him?

afnaveils

09-19-2009, 05:44 PM

harzan

09-19-2009, 11:30 PM

I was very happy to be able to see some of Russ Taylor's fish (with Gerard) as he brought some photos on his lap top. It was very interesting to see that some of Russ' had turned red from a green, and even more interestingly BLUE!

I had a ranchu do that from an edo batch of fry.

King_oF_Ranchu

09-20-2009, 01:33 AM

I am also interesting on breeding this blue ranchu and long tail ranchu too!
Too bad, i have bad luck finding the bloodstock here.
Hopefully, there are something in Japan by early October.

Paul

afertuna

11-04-2009, 10:01 PM

I have one that I will be breeding to some of the Norms blue ranchu I got from him. Russ said he hasn't had much luck this year the batch that David and I got all but one died at my house he lost all but two and the ones Russ kept from the same batch all died the same week. They were stunted with pinched gills. Russ thinks that they may have been just week to start. It is sad I hope that someone here in this group has some luck. I beg of anyone that has fry to help by spreading some out throughout the US west and east coast to insure the survival of the breed. We all need to work together or we will see this breed disappear entirely.

afnaveils

11-05-2009, 12:30 AM

Anyone knows people in GFSA and AGA we could regroup towards this goal. Maybe, one should send flyers or a call out at the different goldfish shows across the USA to identify the hobbyists having these BEPs and regroup.

The only two people I know having BEPs in Canada are Billy Tai and myself. After this year's BS, I already sent an e-mail to Billy to breed his fish. I think I'll remind him again.:exact:

afnaveils

11-05-2009, 03:07 AM

I e-mailed Billy again. I hope Ted could convince his cousin.

Tedster

11-05-2009, 03:57 AM

Hi Gerard,

Well I just accepted a promotion at work and as a result will be relocating to Ontario. Will most likely be living in the Greater Toronto Area and hence I can hopefully see Billy more often and perhaps get him to breed these fish!

Ted

afertuna

11-05-2009, 05:59 AM

I can say safely there is no one here in the Oregon are other than David and I that have them. I took mine to the show and people were constantly saying that they have never even seen one before.

OrandaDan

11-05-2009, 07:16 AM

Its good to see people working together to get something worthwhile done. Good luch from over the Atlantic!

afertuna

11-05-2009, 07:29 AM

Sometimes we do LOL!!!
Its a worthwhile cause

bwleung

11-06-2009, 02:13 AM

Hi Gerard,

I was in Hong Kong for 2 weeks recently. I especially look out for blue phoenix when I was there at Tung Choi Street or Goldfish Street. In my visit, I didn't see any blue phoenix there. Only some huge orandas and ryukins in excess of 15 inches and those black common "goldfish", which are really hybrid carps.

I will upload the photos I took of some goldfish and kois later in my blogs when I have time, but the shop keepers didn't like people taking pictures.

In view of the state of the Blue phoenix in the US at the moment, may I suggest those of you that has blue phoenix to keep all the non-blue phoenix specimens, ie, bronze green phoenix frys, juveniles and young adults. These are still phoenix even if they don't have the correct colour and no matter what, these are still 100% phoenix heritage from the batch in 1996.

After all, all goldfish types occur from mutation, and often from one single sport. I personally think with the bronze green phoenix, the recessive blue can still be recovered from inbreeding these bronze green phoenix specimens or with blue phoenix specimens should the bronze green ones are more vigorous or strong.

An alternative is to out cross them if inbreeding the current weak phoenix strain is not fruitful, as the remaining progeny is so weak.

Best way with this approach I think, in view of finnage, is to outcross blue phoenix with the Japanese blue shukins. Next choice then would be blue ranchu, as ranchus have much shorter fins. However, from what I learnt from the threads, given Phoenix has a tendency to throw bronze green frys, they are not pure genetically. Therefore, it probably won't hurt and probably would benefit from some new 'blue' blood from other true blue metallic breeding lines and to add a bit of vigour.

Last alternative, import breeding pairs from China or HK, ie, absolute last resort to save the breed.

Really admire your efforts in trying to save the breed. I am sure Al Thomma would highly appreciate it too, as he saved the blue phoenix once. He would be surely be disappointed to learn from above that the breed has been lost.

All the very Best.

PS: If I ever see them in Australia, I will let you know.

Kind regards,

Bill

afnaveils

11-06-2009, 03:29 AM

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your post on goldfish in HK. I understand that it is still a treat to walk along Tung Choi street and visit all the goldfish shops. So many amazing fish! I was there almost 15 years ago now.

I'm keeping all the blue egg phoenixes that I have, even those that would be culls in other varieties. So, my plan B would be to use these lower quality BEPs if the better ones would not spawn. As you mentioned, the gene pool is in them too. My plan C would be to outcross to blue ranchus that I got from Harris. I guess there's still hope on my side. Thank you for your advice.

afertuna

11-06-2009, 05:09 AM

Hi Gerard

I have two males. I'm interested in keeping this lime goin.

I'm looking for more stock or will donate mine to a worthy cause.

I heard the fry are off to Hawaii, that's good news.

Hey David the one I have left is a female we need to talk!!!
Allen

orandablue

11-16-2009, 12:21 AM

I am very excited that i just found a blue bubble eye! I read something on line about them being a make of phoenix eggfish and a white bubble eye. I am wondering if anyone knows if this is true. I would Like to pull the phoenix genes back out if this is the case.(or at least make more blue bubble eyes) Any suggestions as what to pair with a blue bubble eye? Also what do a black fish and "chinese blue" fish make? thanks I am also wondering how the eyes will work out with say a shukin/bubble eye cross!?

Ichthius

11-16-2009, 02:08 AM

Please start a new thread so the discussion here is about BEP

thank you.

Congrats on the new fish! Pictures?

harzan

11-16-2009, 07:11 AM

I have remotely thought about this cross, but will see if the BEPs I got from Gerard will spawn...I will also try to cross with the shukins. My shukins I have most likely came from a cross of blue shukin and blue ranchu. I have an inactive male(???) and two females. I through them in with the ranchu for a bit and got some LFs. I believe the long fins are dominant from my crosses last season....not on all, but a couple of them. These fish breed soooo early in the morning I cannot do hand spawns (well I did one, chinese blue ranchu metallic to blue shukin....one blue and the rest now turning orange...what is the deal with that???).

I have hope for this BEP effort...or shall I say...actually quite confident we can get better fish in the next few seasons.

afertuna

11-17-2009, 01:02 AM

Jim Fleeker said that all of his went to Goldfishconnection and Gary a few years back. He wishes us luck though.

Cincy Ranchu

11-17-2009, 02:35 AM

Got an email from Matt last night, he has a trio of BEP, 1 female and two males. When he breeds them he si willing to distribute....:exact:

afnaveils

11-28-2009, 01:24 PM

Great news from Matt!

Another news (some of you may know already) is that Billy Tai succeeded in spawning his BEPs two weeks ago. The last I heard is that the fry are free swimming and eating well. Good job Billy!

Bristolfisher

11-28-2009, 04:43 PM

I have a pair left that I got from the Goldfish Social three years ago. I have not really attempted to spawn them but will in Feb-March 2010. They chased a lot last year and the female blew some eggs, but I didn't have them set up with media. If they are successful I will bring some to the GBS in September 2010.

afnaveils

11-28-2009, 10:23 PM

Thanks Bruce!

afnaveils

02-04-2010, 03:32 AM

November 2009, Billy Tai spawned his BEPs. Well, BEPs are well and safe in Ontario, Canada. Billy has about 2 dozens or so good fry and over a hundred with minor defects. Thanks Billy!:worship:

afnaveils

05-09-2010, 01:59 AM

For those interested, Harris may have some BEP fry for you. Please, contact Harzan.

afnaveils

05-11-2010, 01:57 AM

Harris, has anyone contacted you? Or has the interest for BEPS died out?

Ichthius

05-11-2010, 02:28 AM

I'm very interested!

VeiltailGuy

05-11-2010, 02:39 AM

as well am I!:exact:

Phil4

05-11-2010, 12:32 PM

I would be interested also.

afertuna

07-02-2010, 06:14 AM

Hopefully I will have some pics soon of the BEP fry and the BEP X Shukin outcross. Thank you Harris and MAtt and all the others that have been helping keep this breed alive!!

Cincy Ranchu

07-03-2010, 01:05 PM

All

Matt Lyons just set me about 60 baby BEP last week. I intend to distribute as soon as I get them to the 1" stage., perhaps the Breeders Social. While still tiny they look pretty great, can't tell about the tail split yet....:yess::exact:

afnaveils

07-03-2010, 02:50 PM

I don't know if Russ Taylor succeeded in breeding his BEPs this year but, Gary, I think that some should be kept for him. We owe it to him and you Gary that several of us still have this rare breed. Thanks!

Cincy Ranchu

07-04-2010, 01:30 AM

Russ is coming this year...

harzan

07-04-2010, 07:02 AM

I think I have some interesting observations on my BEP since I finally went through mine this week.

1...Hardly any split tails...maybe just 3 to 5 of them, possibly less.
2...No real problems with gill covers.
3...My 1 year old shukins (have a few left) and a couple with fused tails are starting to split....Do the splits on the BEP come in later or should they by and inch or so???

I still love these fish and hope to get them to full maturity. I plan to send to BS this year, so all that are interested will have more to mix up a little. One day soon, we may have more BEP in the US than in China!:):):)

johnatoranchu

07-04-2010, 08:32 AM

One day soon, we may have more BEP in the US than in China!:):):)

Harris, I think you are right. The Chinese are too clever to spend time, energy and space on fish with little commercial value or interest.
Gerard. Rare is a difficult description to use. It has two meanings. Normally it implies that something is scarce relative to the demand for it but it can also mean that it is scarce because few people are interested in it and I think BEP's fall into the latter category.
Just think how much additional room your Ranchu could enjoy if BEP's were consigned to the "Recycle Bin".
John

Cincy Ranchu

07-04-2010, 02:16 PM

The original stock from China all had split tails, to be honest I can not remember if the off spring were all split or not.

As for John he makes a perfect point, adding BEP to my collection requires about 3 to 5 tanks for inddor keeping, therefore I keep them outdoors. My last breeding group chased themsleves into my koi filter, perserving these outside is a bit risky.

afnaveils

07-04-2010, 09:14 PM

Actually, in my spawns of BEPs last year, only a few had split tails. Some have partial split but most have no split and crooked tail. A good tail is the most difficult feature to get on BEPs. Back line and color seem to be already fixed. Some show reversed gill on one side and others lack anal fins altogether.

John, you are right about tank and tub space, but before loving ranchu, I love all varieties of fancy goldfish. So, even now, I'm limiting myself to only a few varieties instead of trying to get them all. I tend to be attracted to the hard-to-find ones.:me::youtellme:

harzan

07-05-2010, 06:05 AM

johnatoranchu

07-05-2010, 10:20 AM

John...shall we add to the list of other varieties that would look better with more space besides...RANCHU?

Pearl Scales
Oranda
Bristols
Veils
Jikin
Tosakin......and of course your Blue Oranda.

I think the BEPs are more interesting than most of the above.:):):)

And yes G...one batch was 95% no anals...other batches 10-20%.

Just thinking of you, as always, Harris. That's an impressive list of worthwhile varieties. Any or all of them would look good in your BEP tanks and I know you are only kidding me when you say "I think the BEPs are more interesting than most of the above". You are too knowledgeable a fishkeeper to think that such a boring fish can be interesting!!!!! Really hope you can make Gary's this year so I can at least try again to keep you on the right road. My "Harris" just grows and grows and dwarfs his colourful calico Oranda chums. Should I consign him to the "recycle bin"?
John

harzan

07-05-2010, 07:47 PM

Well, I know you believe that list is a worthy one filled with fish you find very interesting. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any at the BS to pick up! I do not raise any on the list I noted.

I recommend you keep your Blue Friend as it has proved to be genetically superior in growth and BEAUTY! Even if the Beautiful Blues do not have any commercial value. How many of us really sell our fish for profit anyways???

Unfortunately I will not be able to make the BS this year as I am in a home renovation for the next few months and will be traveling a little too.

I am sure you will have lots of fun there though. To keep the controversy down, I will not promote my Blue RANCHU Ranchu Show:):):).

Ichthius

07-22-2010, 10:38 PM

Here's a few of my fish (from Matt).
http://goldfishgarage.blogspot.com/search/label/Blue%20Egg%20Phoenix

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pgZfmspcV_M/TEfAa5HmQQI/AAAAAAAAOew/iHIYjhQlnnY/s1600/IMG_2496-730985.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pgZfmspcV_M/TEc5hHuQe2I/AAAAAAAAOeQ/j_w1PuCXXM8/s1600/photo+3-796950.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pgZfmspcV_M/TEc5hvWXmeI/AAAAAAAAOeY/CQV_QdFj9dM/s1600/photo+4-797978.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pgZfmspcV_M/TEc5h37Sf1I/AAAAAAAAOeg/oqZIGmZoW_A/s1600/photo+5-799655.jpg

harzan

07-23-2010, 12:50 AM

Nice fish, to my eyes...Tail is split too! I do not believe many or any of mine are....wondering if temperature has anything to do with this???? Two of the parents were???

Will be interesting to see how Gary does with his Mondens.

johnatoranchu

07-23-2010, 01:30 AM

Presumably they shouldn't have telescopic eyes!!!!!!!
John

afnaveils

07-23-2010, 01:40 AM

Nice BEPS! Thanks for sharing! Mine have not spawned this year.

goldenswimmers

02-03-2011, 02:47 AM

Are there other suppliers of BEP in Asia that anyone knows of?Thailand?
What prices would you be looking at for fish from China?approx!I know these fish are definitely not common and would love a chance at breeding some.I think its the love for fancy goldfish rather than just ranchu that gets people interested.I go for the ranchu,oranda,ryukin,tosakin and yep the BEPs but stay well clear of any telescope eye or pearl scale so obviously its in the eye of the beholder.....love to breed some BEPs!!!!

Billy

02-03-2011, 08:08 PM

Hello everyone,

I have been fascinated with Blue Egg Phoenix (BEP) ever since I originally learned about their acquisition from Hong Kong through the GFSA. Being of Chinese dissent, the BEP has special meaning to me. They are artifacts of my cultural past. These rarities were almost lost due cultural revolution, war, and ever changing taste but that doesn't mean that they are not worth saving and preserving for future generations. Many Japanese varieties like the Nakin, Osaka Ranchus, Tosakin and Jikin have experienced similar pasts. These too, were either extinct or on the verge of extinction and were brought back. In fact, I continue to work with Jikin for this exact same reason.

Gary Hater generously gifted six fish to me @ BSX in 2006 including one very beautiful female. Unfortunately this group never produced viable offspring only eggs that would fungus. After discussions with Gary and Russ Taylor, Gary and I split a shipment of six BEP in 2008 (courtesy of Russ Tayor). These fish were related fish at the cousin level from two separate spawns and a female BEP was also donated to me from my cousin Ted Tai. Success at last! The current breeding group consists of six adult BEP. This group has already started breeding again but I have only managed to keep one small spawn which are now approximately two weeks old. As BEP are not vigorous chasers, you must plan for the spawns in advance or face running out of tanks to move the adults (which I am not prepared to do)! They usually spawn right after their weekly 90% water change so mops must be at the ready.

Last year, I acquired some very nice BEP babies from Gary's (thanks Gary and Matt). These fish show amazing body conformity, colour, and fully divided tails. No doubt to Gary's meticulous care and grooming. I look forward to growing them out and intend to cross my fish to these ones next year.

Cheers,
Billy Tai

Cincy Ranchu

02-04-2011, 03:48 AM

What I always like about BEP is that they swim very fast like shubunkins and get quite large. Billy it is great to see you back on the page! can't wait to see the Tai guys again this year!

Billy

02-04-2011, 03:56 AM

Thanks Gary. They truely show off beautifully in your backyard pond... too bad that bottom drain kept getting the best of them! I am hoping to set up a pond for them in the future. September can't come soon enough. Stay well.

sanggarra

02-04-2011, 04:36 PM

:NeedPic:

Please?... :D Love to see them. TIA.

afnaveils

03-20-2011, 10:30 PM

I got my BEPs (4) at the Gary's BS in 2006 like Billy Tai. Fortunately, there were 2 males and 2 females. They spawned at the end of 2006 and beginning 2007, small spawns but I succeeded in keeping about 10 to 15. The last of the original 4 died last year. In 2009, I bred, culled and kept about 15 decent fry and brought 9 to 2009 BS. Harris took about six and succeeded in breeding them in Hawaii and sent some back to continental USA. When I returned home from 2009 BS, 5 BEPs died of lack of water changes. I did not want to alarm anyone as Russ had a bad BEP breeding season that same year.

Today in 2011, I still have a dozen of F1, F2 and F3 which I need to breed this year. I also need to get some cousin BEP from Matt Lyons to get some vigor back. Now I know Billy Tai has Matt's fish.:exact: