Pin holes in the fin [Archive] - Site for Goldfish Keepers

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small_ranchu

07-22-2009, 02:05 AM

I am wondering about the symptom of "pin holes in the fin". I bought a TVR from show last week and fish was belly up this morning. After close inspection this morning, I saw a lot of pin holes in the fins. This is the first time for me and couldn't find any information regarding the disease. Any idea?

29 G
Ammonia 0
nitrite/nitrate 0
PH 7.5
temperature 78 degree

eros

07-22-2009, 04:30 AM

eros

07-22-2009, 06:45 AM

BTW, the fishes were received in this lousy condition. I should have known better as I heard a few things & the fact that the fish were shipped to me a few days after it got to the US. No QT.

small_ranchu

07-22-2009, 12:38 PM

Is it a new disease? I haven't read anything about this yet.

suphi

07-22-2009, 01:17 PM

Hmm I'm interested to hear more about this also, since I just spent the past week nursing my $$$ TVRs back to health.

They developed sudden lethargy last week, sank to the bottom and refused to eat for a whole week. Anyway, I nuked the tank with Copper-based med plus combination of Prazi and Oxolinic to make sure I nailed as many bugs that I could. This also included 100% daily WC. They just started eating and swimming around today, so I think they're gonna make it. My next step will be medicated food with metronidazole.

I don't see pinholes or any external signs of infection on my fish, although I didn't do any scrapes.

Ranchumaniax

07-22-2009, 02:09 PM

small_ranchu

07-22-2009, 02:12 PM

Fish was swimming happily and eating as I told you on the phone. So I didn't pay enough attention on him. On my side, I don't know the symptom of pin hole disease.

small_ranchu

07-22-2009, 02:17 PM

Can you find out about more information about new disease from Mr. Boss for the future? Thanks.

Ranchumaniax

07-22-2009, 02:34 PM

They are Ich like parasites (accdg to Steve as he scraped and placed it under the microscope). Sorry Fred but I have the same situation with all the TVR's I bought from xxxxxxxxxxxx. I will be posting more about this w/ pictures and microscope slide pix when I can. Im am pissed off about the situation.

According to your e-mail, you said you only have 5 of them! Now you saying, all of them! And Steve flying from Hawaii to scaped your TVR for you? I love this guy!

I believe i have explained everything to you via e-mail. Some other Profesional said it might be like Ich parasite. Well...I've talked with Mr. Boss about this issue. And i believe i have e-mail you about what i've been told. He said that treatment/Chemical could effect the TVR with this "Pin-hole" issue. If you mixing chemical into the water with the TVR in it. The Treatment/Chemical could go directly to the fish, like treat 100% dosage.

In your case, You said you use Salt of .3% + Melafix + PraziPro at the same time. Most fish from Petsmart or Petco any other commercial fish could take the treatment like this, but not these TVR. I understand it might sound like a good QT process, but base to what i know, you should never treat any chemical/treatment with salt in the water!

Talking about the way to cure, the only way to resolve this issue is to cut up thru the pin-hole on the fins. And the fins heal up. This process could take up from 4 days to 2 months.

I'll be taking pictures of all of my TVR at their fins, both left over from June Shipment(same shipment as your fish) and the TVR from my Previous Shipment. They're all still alive with no pin-hole. Even though I have take them for a long drive to Indy and Chicago. I do not use any chemical to my TVR, only Salt!

Also all of the TVR that Mr. Boss has at his place has no "Pin-Hole". And when i received them. I do not see any pin-hole on them.

Paul xxxxxxxxxxxx.com

Ranchumaniax

07-22-2009, 02:53 PM

Regardless to JIkin, Jikin are commonly found with pin-hole on their fins. Even the Jikin competition in Japan. Here are some winning Jikin in Japan with pin-hole on the Dorsal fin. Even though they may not have much hole on its fins, but there are some pin hole!

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/img010.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/img009.jpg

Im not trying to say that TVR should have "pin-hole", but you have mention in one of your e-mail that one person bought a Jikin from me. And those Jikin got pin-hole. Jikin and TVR are 2 different story.

small_ranchu

07-22-2009, 02:54 PM

In my case, I don't use any medication(not even salt) for QT. The strange behavior of this disease is that we didn't see any symptom before hand or I didn't know the symptom. I let algae grown on the sides my aquarium and try to view the fish from the top. I didn't see the hole ealier. (If I clean the side, I might notice it ealier).
Paul, I have seen the same suggestion in RG's site by Doc. and hope it is the way to cure this disease. Time is an issue for me though. You said 4 days to 2 months to cure it but my fish went belly up within 2 weeks. Hope we can find the medication.

Ranchumaniax

07-22-2009, 03:06 PM

BTW, the fishes were received in this lousy condition. I should have known better as I heard a few things & the fact that the fish were shipped to me a few days after it got to the US. No QT.

I only ship out fish that they're ready for a long journey! without any accidentally of Flat bag, broken boxes, or any other circumstances cause from shipping company. Most of my fish arrive at your door safely. If not, they should be dying within 1-2 days.

QT has been started 2-3 weeks before the exporting date at Mr. Boss place with formalin on some fish that i get from other breeder for 3 days, then he uses Japanese yellow powder for almost a week, then treat the fish again with Tropical Gold. I believe his QT process are fantastic and probably the most expensive QT process. On my end, right after i have receive the fish. I'll QT with salt at .3-.6% depending on the condition of the fish for period of 1-3 week.

If you ask anyone who you know around the world, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippine, and etc. Fish from Mr. Boss always in good condition. And im garanteed, you'll never hear anyone oversea complaint that TVR from Mr. Boss has "Pin-hole" on its fins. And if it does, each hobbyist know what really happening!

Paul xxxxxxxxxxxx.com

Ranchumaniax

07-22-2009, 04:14 PM

I will try to get the Pictures of my TVR on the side-view profile as soon as i can. Too bad im going out of town today, so i'll have to do it tomorrow! This way, i can prove that this issue is not on my end! I do really care about my reputation and i do not want someone mistake/misunderstanding to destroy what i have build and put all my energy and effort to in one day!

One more thing i would like to say about High Quality Goldfish is they're delicate and fragile. Only with small mistake that we did without notice, That mistake will make everything go worst. And i believe everybody in the hobby know, BEST FISH GO FIRST!

Paul

suphi

07-22-2009, 04:23 PM

Fred, no parasites (or any invertebrates including snail, shrimp, etc.) will survive copper treatment...unless they're in cyst stage. You have to be careful about dosing, but if you can keep water quality pristine it should be safe enough.

small_ranchu

07-22-2009, 04:51 PM

Ajno

07-22-2009, 05:54 PM

I got a fish from Dandy Orandas that way where the fins have pin holes in them. I did a standard qt and treated with salt and prazi and the fish still has them. I've had this fish for several months. I almost wondered if it was genetic.

GlassGoldfish

07-22-2009, 06:54 PM

Any recommendation? I have never used any of copper product though.

Copper Safe is "chelated", I belive this means that its harder to over-dose the fish because in this form it dissolves very slowly in the water. Copper can easily kill fish in a non-chelated form. Copper Safe brand is recommended for ich, velvet and other external parasites. To me this seems like a good next step after salt, but NeoRanchu basically told me not to use it.

suphi

07-22-2009, 07:09 PM

Coppersafe is what I used. Don't redose with each water change to avoid toxicity (I do daily WC for sick fish, btw). 24-hr treatment is enough to nuke the free-swimming parasites (the cysts won't die until hatched). Redose in a week or so after a complete water change. The med can remain active for a whole month.

bigbettadan

07-22-2009, 07:27 PM

Suphi,

Are you having problems with the ones you raised from BBR or just the new ones? I am having struggles/losses with the new ones, but my Itoh/Kudo's I raised from BBR are doing great. Just curious.

Dan

bigbettadan

07-22-2009, 07:35 PM

I do think the pinhole thing and this die off are separate issues. I am really starting to think it was an internal bacterial infection vs a extermal parasite. But I am still not sure.

Dan

bigbettadan

07-22-2009, 08:04 PM

I just talked to Paul who is communicating with Mr Boss. They feel it is some kind of gill infection, which falls more in line with these symtoms. Paul is working on the situation with Mr Boss.

Dan

SeaWitch

07-22-2009, 10:25 PM

I, too, have a demekin that has pin holes in her tail fins. They run along the edge in a straight line, almost as if someone put them there as a decoration or something. She did not have them for almost a year, and then one day, there were there. I have had her for over two years now and the holes are still there. Other than that, she is healthy and active. I tried salt and some Mela-Fix (some ppl say that Mela-Fix works and other think it does nothing), but the holes would not go away.:youtellme: It could be different kinds of holes we are all talking about here, or different causes for the holes? My demekin, however, is the only one who has them out of all my fish.

Bucks Koi

07-23-2009, 02:35 AM

These pin holes are not from any internal problems.
I have seen these on koi and goldfish and other tropicals .
They will usally never go away, unless the fish is young and can grow back the fin.
In my experience with koi I have had two reason that have caused this for me.

1. Parasites were on that spot/pinhole before the treatment when it gets killed it leaves a open wound then the treatment burns it even more causing a pinhole
just like a cigarette would burn a hole in your shite or pants.

2.When any treatment in a powder form is used this can also get on the fins if not diluted with water and can also cause these pinholes.
Always dilute powder forms of treatments.

Also never never never mix salt with any treatment.
Also always have plenty of air/oxygen in the tank during treatments.

Patrick

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 07:49 AM

I just talked to Paul who is communicating with Mr Boss. They feel it is some kind of gill infection, which falls more in line with these symtoms. Paul is working on the situation with Mr Boss.

Dan

After our conversation on the phone about what happening to your TVR.
Mr. Boss offering a replacement on your TVR that lost by "Gill Infection". I understand you might not notice them when they're start floating up or showing the symptom. This Gill infection usually happen once in their life time of goldfish. After the fish got Infection, it'll heal up and start to get a stronger immunity on their gill. The cure on this Gill Infection are quite easy as stated by Mr. Boss. Clean water, High aeration, salt of 0.5-0.65% depending on level of infection. The trick part is no touching or leave the fish alone for 3-5 days. Moving fish or different/bad water condition could lead your fish to death.

Note: This "Gill Infection" are a lot different than "Fluke Gill Infection".

Anyway, Please do e-mail me for more information about your replacement!

Best Regards,
Paul xxxxxxxxxxxx.com

bekko

07-23-2009, 08:22 AM

The bug that makes the pin holes does not kill the fish. That is part of the problem because the fish never acts sick and unless you look very closely for the small spots of inflammation in the fin the bug goes un-noticed while it eats a hole. The bug can be eliminated overnight with any medication designed to treat ich.

-steve

suphi

07-23-2009, 12:32 PM

My home-grown TVRs had those pinholes when they were younger, not now. They're doing ok.

Dan, my sick fish are the new AAA ones (well not so new, had them for over a month). They stopped swimming altogether and appeared half dead hiding in a corner with just tiny movement of gill plates that was the only sign of life. One even tilted to the side. Thank goodness things are mostly back to normal now.

bigbettadan

07-23-2009, 05:05 PM

Yes, that what I was saying Steve. The parasite that causes pinholes is not what is killing these fish.

Thanks
Dan

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 06:10 PM

Here are my TVR pictures on side-view profile.
If you can see "PINHOLE", please let's me know.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0111.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0119.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0126.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0128.jpg

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 06:14 PM

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0133.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0136.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0139.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0149.jpg

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 06:15 PM

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0150.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0153.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0155.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0164.jpg

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 06:17 PM

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0166.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0167.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0168.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0171.jpg

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 06:19 PM

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0173.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0170.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/DSC_0175.jpg

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 06:29 PM

And here are the video of my TVR that i have instock from June & July shipment.
No death fish from "Gill Infection" that start on last Saturday. Thank to Mr. Boss for the instruction on how to treat them! Now they're healthy and ready for ship out!

Video 1:
<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JmXgdqLykVI&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JmXgdqLykVI&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

Video 2:
<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eJ_yGSgHtj8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eJ_yGSgHtj8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 06:48 PM

To those who looking to get the TVR and worry about the "Gill Infection".
Based on Mr. Boss experience and knowledge on the TVR, He said that "General Gill Infection" only occur once in the life time. Since these TVR just receive the infection, i believe they'll not get the Gill infection again!

Best Regard,
Paul

P.S. Each individual picture will be post on my website this Sunday!

suphi

07-23-2009, 07:21 PM

Paul, I didn't see any pinholes on the fish but you do have a hole on your left 4th fingertip. You're in trouble now.>:)

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 07:24 PM

Maybe i have to ask my mother for a replacement!
Not sure if it my mother or mine fault! >:)

bigbettadan

07-23-2009, 08:04 PM

Looks like a wart to me......LOL

Dan

Ranchumaniax

07-23-2009, 08:10 PM

nah...that's disgusting! It's just i been puting my hand into water too often.
The skin is just decay. Nothing serious!

GlassGoldfish

07-24-2009, 01:46 AM

Is Japanese Yellow Powder a treatment for gill infections/disease?

Is anybody in USA supplying JYP?

King_oF_Ranchu

07-24-2009, 01:50 AM

I know one Koi Vender website carry them. I'll try to find the website address for you. Or if you really need one, i could ask Mr. Boss for you.

But seriously, My salt treatment work much better with "Gill Infection". Also cheaper! ..lol..

Paul.

GlassGoldfish

07-24-2009, 01:59 AM

What is JYP typically prescribed for? I have heard about it for years, but its still rather mysterious to me.

bekko

07-24-2009, 08:21 AM

JYP is an antibacterial. It is also called Elbagan. It is very similar to the nitrofurazone used in the US. It kills many bacteria in the water and on the surface of the fish. There are differences of opinion about how much, if at all, it penetrates the skin and gills to kill internal bacteria. I have never found it to be of much use. It is a suspected carcinogen.

-steve

suphi

07-24-2009, 11:27 AM

IMO, quinolones such as Baytril (injected form) or Oxolinic acid (powder) are more modern, powerful and as broad-spectrum as you can get for an antibiotic. They're also a lot safer than Nitrofurazone. They, however, do not have activities against single-cell protozoa like the latter.