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Breeding Project: Ranchu x Wakin = Izumo Nankin. Assumptions vs Reality

Discussion in 'Breeding' started by Moose1414, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Breann Thurman

    Breann Thurman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2017
    Location:
    Oregon
    I have been silently following this and I have to say i have been thoroughly enjoying this. Once you get the line settled i would so get fish from you
     
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  2. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    Still learning all about colour, thought this one was solid orange at one point. Now white is creeping in

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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  3. Breann Thurman

    Breann Thurman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2017
    Location:
    Oregon
    Goldfish fry are like Pokemon. They go though like 3 color changes. It's a very vibrant orange though. This fish will likely have some deep red as it gets older.
     
  4. SantaMonicaHelp

    SantaMonicaHelp Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Location:
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    I always like how the tails look from above. You'd almost swear they were custom made.

    -Kamran
     
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  5. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    That seems to be the case indeed,

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    Some different single tails to the one I posted before, look pretty much the same from above. All dorsalless but some have better backs than others. To me this is an interesting way to carry forward some different ranchu genetics for possible future use, among these are offspring from the solid orange and black matt ranchu. Most of the Nankin prototypes are from either TVR or Red/White SVR. Having something different to outcross to in the group of single tails might prove fortunate at some point.

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  6. Breann Thurman

    Breann Thurman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2017
    Location:
    Oregon
    If the gender ratio comes to favor hopefully the two babies with the cleanest backs are males. Maybe line breed them to a female ranchu to bring back the more consistant double tails and clean backs.
     
  7. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    Only problem with that is I don't have any female ranchu :)
    But so far as gender ratio's go I think it'll be fine, I've got enough fish that there are bound to be enough males and females [touch wood] to work with. Female F1's can be back crossed to a male ranchu if required. For the moment I'm still hoping to get clean backs out of the sibling crosses if that works out next breeding season.
    My focus for now is slowly shifting more just to grooming and appreciating the fish I have so far and seeing how they develop as they mature, with an eye in particular to the ones who develop the least wen.
    In an ideal world, I'd only breed from one pair [judged to the the best pairing] out of the 10 keepers and only mix in the other options if needed. So ideally, the best fish for this line would be female and the 2nd and 3rd best fish would be males. We'll see.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
  8. csoth1

    csoth1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    I'm still really impressed with these results. I agree with the sibling cross of dorsalless F1s. I'd avoid breeding back to the ranchu unless absolutely necessary to not intensify the ranchu traits and would definitely not breed them back to anything with a dorsal.
     
  9. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    Thanks. Yeah I agree, I think that going back to the ranchu comes with too much risk of bringing a different head structure into the mix. Sticking with the F1's is to me mostly about that, hoping to wakins smooth head features concentrate down the line. I should get a good indication out of this backcross I did whether the F1's with partial dorsals are capable of producing dorsalless and in what ratio.
     
  10. csoth1

    csoth1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    @bkrhodesva should be able to provide insight into percentages based on his albino bubble eye project. I think you'll have an easier time than him though since he's essentially trying to breed for three traits by getting albino dorsalless fish with big bubbles. You're really just trying to breed dorsalless wakin at this point because tail set and shape seems to vary so much even within a spawns from fish of the same breed that it'll be easy to play with that down the line once you have good backs.
     
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  11. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    Exactly this. Starting long and gradually working back toward egg shape is the way to go I think. And yeah already among my F1's i can see that each is slightly different in the body and head characteristics. The better tails a slightly more uniform and about where i want them to be.
     
  12. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    Narrowed down to these 8 fish, keeping 7.

    The Whites: Actually thinking of keeping the one with the pinched tail. Great tail on the other one and possibly the most egg like, but very close in shape [particularly dorsal profile] to the lightning bolt pattern fish bellow. These are both TVR x Wakin

    White.jpg

    2 more TVR x Wakin. The one with the central dorsal has, I think, the best tail. Open, springy, good tail brace.

    TVR.jpg

    These 2 are both from different red/white SVR males. The first fish has the best shoulder hump and overall nankin side profile except for its dorsal bump. The second just has the biggest [almost maybe the best] tail. At first I actually had it outside my favourites because the tail looked like it would be too big and to my inexperience eye I thought surely would collapse. But as its grown the tail has really help up well, better tail tension than most of the others with smaller tails. At rest, its very impressive.

    SVR.jpg

    And as this one is finally decolouring, put side by side with the best fish it strikes me as probably being the most genetically similar. So despite the poor tail I want to keep it because of the possibility they are opposite sex and might combine the best to replicate this shape.

    AE.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
    cuong huyh and SantaMonicaHelp like this.
  13. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    I've finally reduced my stock down to a more manageable level. It was fun growing out these F1 spawns but just an incredible amount of work, looking forward to getting down to 1 water change per week on each tub rather than multiple or daily.
    The 7 final nankin F1 prospects have joined my SVR in the large black tub, so they now have a bit more water volume and room to swim around. The grow out tub is currently stocked with about 20 dorsalless single tails. But I do have a backcross spawn thats a few weeks old and a different backcross that hatched yesterday. I'll have more to say on those in future.

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    I don't think I've mentioned this so far but quite fortunately another goldfish tragic who lives locally reached out to me after seeing this thread. So about a dozen of the F1 prospects, plus the wakin female plus some of my original ranchu, went to live in his system which is a lot larger than mine.
    With the exception of the one dorsalless F1 with an egg body and decent tail, there was very little separating the next dozen or so fish and anyones guess really which is better than which for breeding from. He's got a lot to work now too, and I reckon as good a chance of producing improved fish at F2 as I have. To my mind I've kept the best 2-3 fish and then have gone for more flawed fish with one of 2 things that appeal to me for the rest of my group. So a bit more focused on the skinny ends of the bell curve. Which meant passing on fish like the white one bellow, which quite possibly has the most nankin shape from top view as its grown out. He has more the fish in between, and more of them. I'm really looking forward to comparing results in future spawns. And its good to have an insurance policy for the line and the opportunity to trade fish back and forth if required.

    PB240744.jpg

    He also has ryukins and recently crossed one of those to one of his SVR's so for all those who said I should have started with a Ryukin instead of a Wakin... maybe we'll see how that goes.
     
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  14. cuong huyh

    cuong huyh Member

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    Apr 28, 2017
    Location:
    Australia
    Thanks for the mention Moose and of course your fish!!

    Tragic!! Yes I would say that is an appropriate word to describe our cause!! Fancy goldfish keeping and breeding is nothing short of a full time job. With the all the water changes, feeding, treatments, maintenance around the tanks and not to mention all the time gawking at the fish :p We definitely spend too much time on our fish!!

    As Moose mentioned, I had a spawn from my female lionhead with a mixture of ranchus and ryukin. This was just over a month ago and the largest fry is now about 1 inch in length. I did a water change last night and did a separation exercise. There is about 180 fry in the mix, I have culled any bent backs. I am not culling for quality at the moment as I am quite new to the hobby and not quite sure what I am culling towards as the parents are all different breeds. If the fry survive and grow out then fine, they can work as poo factories for my ever growing aquaponics system. In my opinion goldfish are perfect for aquaponics. Especially here in Perth Australia, very workable temperature ranges.

    I saw my broadtail ryukin being chased today, so I hand bred her with my buffalo head ranchu, red and white svr and blue oranda with. It is hard to get nice imported fish here in Perth, so it would be nice if the fry will result in a nice fish. Here's to more work coming up :p
     
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  15. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

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    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    Not really one for naming fishes but this is Needle and Blue, these fish continue to amaze me. Feels like every time I go out and look in the pond they are more and more like Nankins. Hoping this is a pair.

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  16. SantaMonicaHelp

    SantaMonicaHelp Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Location:
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Keep up the good work!

    -Kamran
     
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  17. Moose1414

    Moose1414 Active Member

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    Feb 8, 2016
    Location:
    Australia
    Side views from today

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  18. SantaMonicaHelp

    SantaMonicaHelp Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Location:
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    It's interesting seeing goldfish without dorsal fins...

    -Kamran
     

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